#844 - Ai Weiwei

00:00:00: All right, new episode of Young and Iive.

00:00:02: You have a new guest.

00:00:02: who are you?

00:00:05: Well my name is Ai Weiwei and Weiwei's first name.

00:00:09: Weiwei was the first name.

00:00:10: yes

00:00:12: How are you Weiwei?

00:00:14: what do you in Berlin?

00:00:16: I'm having nothing to do.

00:00:18: actually i...I Do have something after the corpus but at same time I feel have nothing too.

00:00:26: do

00:00:27: how come?

00:00:30: How come?

00:00:31: because I'm living in such a condition, it's the location i am not really choosing to because im like no man person traveling all time and my destination always have certain kind of purpose.

00:00:56: But those purpose is not really exactly what I want to, like exhibition or conversation.

00:01:04: Or interviews...I just try to cope with it.

00:01:09: Can you cope?

00:01:10: Is easier too?

00:01:11: It's

00:01:11: easy to cope as long as You still wake up next morning

00:01:23: Hopefully.

00:01:27: Why do always travel?

00:01:28: Do live in hotels?

00:01:29: Do you have a place by yourself?

00:01:37: Since I was born, my father was exiled.

00:01:40: So i never had a place that can call it home because the home at least offers you certain kind of security or safetyness or something familiar with.

00:01:53: so we can realize too.

00:01:55: but in my situation is... My father wasn't in XL, and we can be moved to any location or being fixed at any locations.

00:02:09: And then later I was in the United States for twelve years which i never felt a sense of belonging.

00:02:18: Then when back to China become guest from my own country but I think the internet is only since i'm a little bit familiar with.

00:02:31: The rest of it, those physical conditions...I am not very famous.

00:02:37: I speak Chinese and love Chinese food.

00:02:40: besides that ...i don't have much attachment to that land.

00:02:48: my mom is nighty-three.

00:02:53: Just a few minutes ago, she expressed her feeling to say you should come back.

00:02:59: You shouldn't bring back whatever you have there and this is land...you should stay.

00:03:05: so I said yes ummm..I will try to do that.

00:03:09: How?

00:03:10: Well

00:03:11: i think today if we do anything We'll have to cut off our past And uh....we've had to Cut of our memory And we have to do be like every day you wake up.

00:03:27: It's like a new person.

00:03:28: You have to say I appreciate today's temperature Even sunshine or raining or coldness of warmness still, We have to appreciate it to be alive.

00:03:41: That sounds easy

00:03:45: So far is for me but not so easy For many people.

00:03:50: Many people may never wake up.

00:03:53: Why?

00:03:54: Oh, different reasons.

00:03:56: Getting old, sickness and in the war or some destination designed by other people And there's no way they can overcome.

00:04:14: But my experience like all that I get The more i feel.

00:04:19: you know My soul wants to be free.

00:04:24: You see the restrictions of so-called freedom in your country, where you live among your peers.

00:04:37: And my soul strives to be free and wants to have freedom for other people as well.

00:04:48: Don't you think it's possible?

00:04:49: For others too

00:04:52: I think It is questionable.

00:04:56: And the concept of freedom, also to be free is empty words.

00:05:05: So people use that often.

00:05:09: but what does it mean?

00:05:10: To be free and free from what?

00:05:17: so when you talk about soul What is a soul?

00:05:22: You know, so those are has to be.

00:05:25: have a clear definition.

00:05:28: Let me offer my definition.

00:05:34: My soul tells me and I want to be free from domination.

00:05:39: I Wanted live in a society or in the world with That there's no domination.

00:05:46: you know absence of domination freedom as non-domination.

00:05:51: Well that's only part of our freedom about so-called domination, but the domination can be also by the idea of no domination.

00:06:03: Really?

00:06:04: Of course because we have a body or understanding for ourself.

00:06:13: it's completely misleading.

00:06:21: how do you understand is myself and why I don't want to be dominant?

00:06:29: in what sense.

00:06:32: So, what we would think it's domination.

00:06:35: of course you can see all this domination for authority.

00:06:38: someone tell me what to do or you know a domination of censorship?

00:06:45: Or not to speak off?

00:06:48: those are easy to understand.

00:06:51: but as much profound domination, even by the idea of freedom and an idea for non-domination still can dominate a lot people's thinking and behaving.

00:07:08: What is your understanding on

00:07:11: freedom?

00:07:12: For me this never has absolute freedom.

00:07:17: Freedom means

00:07:18: struggle.

00:07:19: Freedom overcomes The difficulties.

00:07:25: so first we have to recognize what is the struggle.

00:07:29: yes,

00:07:29: then they understand why?

00:07:33: We have to Against a tie To achieve something.

00:07:39: What does that mean?

00:07:41: you know two to fight of freedom or to achieve certain kind of freedom.

00:07:48: What doesn't mean to you?

00:07:54: I think It means struggle for my own self, but also struggle for others who are maybe unwilling or unable to struggle.

00:08:07: Yeah

00:08:08: But it has to be very special Very not just special by the way Particular sense because only that sensitivity relate you.

00:08:26: then that would be the meaning of your freedom.

00:08:30: And your freedom normally should have a character really related to personal inner conditions, Of course it can be reflected by others but still could.

00:08:51: there is general so-called freedom which Which normally we talked about.

00:08:59: but even to achieve those general freedom still are you gonna be free?

00:09:06: I don't think so.

00:09:07: I think the human can never really be free because Human as a species Existing in world is only because they are capable and challenge our conditions under struggle to achieve some kind of momentary joyfulness or satisfaction.

00:09:42: What do you think the western societies?

00:09:58: I mean, you lived in Germany and US.

00:10:01: You live Portugal now?

00:10:04: No...I live at hotels, airports and travelling between different studios.

00:10:13: but do know a lot of westerners what do think we don't realize that are struggling with?

00:10:21: I mean we always think of you know dictatorships in China and other countries.

00:10:26: Oh my god, they are not free And the they don't live in a free society.

00:10:30: What do you think?

00:10:31: We don't see that as a whole.

00:10:34: what?

00:10:34: um

00:10:35: i think if we generalize Generalize the western general it's speaking The west.

00:10:49: we're talking about A society which Basically, the character is about capitalism.

00:11:01: and of course you have different capitalism.

00:11:05: Some capitalism has socialism attached to it but if we talk fundamentally its about increasing so-called individual freedom But at the same time, competition.

00:11:29: I think it's a hidden word.

00:11:30: there is competition then you will increase in domination of the aftercompetition There.

00:11:42: always domination here and that really being protected under to be encouraged.

00:11:49: so do have society mainly trying to establish some kind of so-called democratic, but never democratic.

00:12:00: But also freedom speech which is not true.

00:12:04: you know we all know there's no real freedom.

00:12:07: a speech any message has to be censored or otherwise.

00:12:15: if it's not censored its not going to even exposed and and also nobody is going to listen to it because everybody has a self-censorship.

00:12:25: So we are living in a hypocritical society trying to have some kind of fake understanding about what kind the elite life will be compared with those societies like authoritarian society or less... less developed society.

00:12:52: But what we should also understand, even in every society you can achieve some personal freedom.

00:13:02: You know those personal freedoms which are equally precious and can be meaningful.

00:13:14: So there's no privilege or know some kind of, to say one is higher than the others.

00:13:27: It's really about individuals' consciousness judgment and how much space you get from your own struggle.

00:13:44: Why is there no freedom of speech?

00:13:46: Why is there no true freedom of speech?

00:13:48: why do we censor ourselves like when we talk here publicly, why did we speak differently than what it wouldn't be.

00:13:59: Well the media are basically owned by powerful agents you know companies or even by the public which mainly has been dominated by propaganda or some kind of fixed ideology.

00:14:25: So we are dealing with a situation which the living environment in our mind, our thinking and conditions.

00:14:39: if you don't follow the censorship There's not enough oxygen or water, right temperature to encourage freedom of speech.

00:15:00: Of course in many cases it can be devastating because you have different opinion and different voice a different attitude.

00:15:10: that could be devastating.

00:15:12: That has been proved by any society communist capitalist or democracy, or as a terrain society is exactly the same.

00:15:25: Why it's exact.

00:15:26: if people say oh we can see whatever you want to see?

00:15:29: I said that only because what ever he said was not relevant.

00:15:36: nobody cared about.

00:15:37: his says.

00:15:38: but even in China make little noise.

00:15:42: People get nervous Because my voice can be heard So today.

00:15:49: Then nervous because you say relevant things.

00:15:51: My voice

00:15:51: can be heard, it's can be amplified Because nobody talks that way.

00:15:56: But here seems everybody think we can talk this way and the other way.

00:16:00: Nobody care yes?

00:16:02: Because your voice is not unique enough You never touch sensitive part And which make people feel uncomfortable.

00:16:19: The capitalism is based on the comfort, also based on self-satisfaction.

00:16:27: Based on... ...self-indulgent.

00:16:34: You talked about capitalism earlier and for like forty or fifty years now in our societies.

00:16:39: here it's what we call neoliberalism you know?

00:16:47: It's a sense of All that really matters is your individuality, you know?

00:16:53: What... Your life's about.

00:16:56: Making money and getting ahead of other people being a unique individual You're saying on the other hand nobody cares what you say because you don't have anything unique to say.

00:17:14: How does it work together?

00:17:17: I think you're just like a fish in the fish tank, comfortable.

00:17:23: You know good temperature and lighting.

00:17:26: people fit your well under.

00:17:28: you have comfort for life using your movement graceful and you are being appreciated by another fish.

00:17:40: but that is very small fish tank.

00:17:43: it's not real life.

00:17:47: under some kind of conditions like in the greenhouse, you don't have a storm.

00:17:53: You do not have wind or more difficult temperature.

00:18:00: so if we call that life is real which congratulations for me it's just being conditioned to be able to comfort us someone doing massage to you and you think that is real life.

00:18:20: Okay, so

00:18:23: How much is Comfort comforting ourselves?

00:18:28: You know making our selves comfortable And how much it's our surroundings, you know the society Government laws.

00:18:38: how much are they trying to comfort us in not being or not having a unique voice of no speaking up, living in the tank.

00:18:52: I don't think government has bad intentions.

00:18:57: they have great intention for themselves.

00:19:00: so how do they govern?

00:19:02: Is there support by powerful companies and people who are strong interests?

00:19:14: Business, you know it's about competition of struggle for life.

00:19:20: So they are products of the powerful people.

00:19:27: Of course that is more reliable to be part of poor people.

00:19:34: so obviously any government or power If they want to maintain their power, or if really wanna govern people.

00:19:46: They're part of the real big establishment that can be hidden and open but still nobody escapes.

00:20:03: it's not possible.

00:20:06: How did you manage have a unique voice?

00:20:12: Do you think you have a unique voice?

00:20:16: You have relevant things to say.

00:20:20: I never think that way, just try be honest.

00:20:24: That's the quality i don't want lose and look at mirror.

00:20:30: today I said something I really do not wanna say.

00:20:35: To be honest does mean your message is right because also condition from your knowledge, your judgment to your philosophical view about the world.

00:20:48: But... The minimum thing you can do is be honest because otherwise you lose yourself and then become something that you cannot recognize.

00:20:58: That's a big tragic sin for life.

00:21:01: if you cannot recognise yourself

00:21:05: How how can you tell?

00:21:08: You're being honest!

00:21:13: What you say is honest.

00:21:15: I think the honesty, it's your pay price because honestly requires you have a rationality searching for truth and trying to be part of The reality which very often is very harsh You know.

00:21:40: so that means you can hurt yourself for being honest because people are voiced to be honest, they don't want hurt themselves.

00:21:56: For human judgment there's always a reason behind any argument.

00:22:06: so when people have choice you can clearly see what is the clear reason

00:22:16: And

00:22:16: then you can easily tell which is honest or not.

00:22:25: Both of us are speaking in our at least second language, your first languages Mandarin I guess Chinese?

00:22:33: My my language is German.

00:22:35: we

00:22:37: have to

00:22:37: talk each other English right now.

00:22:40: how much Of the way think Can you translate into The english language when i ask your question.

00:22:50: How difficult or how frustrating is it not to be able... ...to speak in your native language and express your thoughts, or answers better?

00:23:03: It's totally frustrating only because you're changing yourself when dancing but still that performance gives a special meaning.

00:23:17: You know, a chanted person dancing can be also impressive.

00:23:23: So I'm a person has been chanted and the dancing still on stage And uh...I don't enjoy that But it's still offers special meaning.

00:23:37: so i think sometimes to Be using second language or give you an opportunity stay with the very essential concept and also sometimes by choosing wrong words or not proper words I'll give you language more poetic quality because You don't mean exactly that.

00:24:11: That's a poetry.

00:24:15: What did you learn English?

00:24:17: I learned in California, you know, language school.

00:24:23: How easy was it?

00:24:25: It's pretty easy because for beginnings is so much fun but I never developed it Because to really understand the language You need a lot of reading and writing.

00:24:48: When you read every day, do you read in your native language?

00:24:53: I don't really even my native language.

00:24:56: Do you

00:24:56: read at all?

00:24:58: almost not why?

00:25:00: because some I grew up in cultural revolution.

00:25:04: that time most books are forbidden.

00:25:07: and Hope my father burned his collection of books is a literature man needs the most well-known poet.

00:25:15: So, I hope to burn it because that brings him all the trouble.

00:25:21: And so why...I think we'll be fortunate if you start reading while young but read some basic books basically literature or very few But still affect me always wondering If i read too much would be benefits Or will be disadvantage Because For human consciousness You only need to read a very little.

00:25:51: then you already got the key.

00:25:54: Then, you can open the door.

00:25:55: Why?

00:25:57: Because he will leave it a kid opened or you don't have to take him down on the wall.

00:26:02: Take taking down the door just needs a key.

00:26:08: Difficulties.

00:26:09: difficulty is to find the key.

00:26:11: what do know to realize that yeah of the key

00:26:14: Right yes sometimes this wrong key but

00:26:17: wrong key

00:26:17: Yeah, but I know how to fix door.

00:26:20: I mean the lock from very young and also open a log.

00:26:27: Have you tried to learn German language?

00:26:30: Not at words because i Because I can see my imperfection in my native language And then I can say How badly are use English.

00:26:46: so don't want another language.

00:26:49: Because when I talk to foreigners and people who like to think, they always are envious of being able speak the German language.

00:27:00: because from a philosophical or historical perspective it seems that a lot of German thinkers had an advantage in thinking.

00:27:11: Because German language is very logical...

00:27:14: I don't think so.

00:27:16: No?

00:27:16: I think any logic cannot be under the common simplest expression.

00:27:24: So I just guess if anybody thinks they are very logical, that's a cage.

00:27:31: They put their thinking into a cage There being transformed Into some kind of devastating situation.

00:27:41: We don't have to be so So-called logical.

00:27:47: make right judgment.

00:27:49: If all those logic only leading us to a strange place, we better just drop it now.

00:27:58: I learned that most of the time We make decisions before we realize them and then after we made the decision... ...we rationalize in our head.

00:28:08: Do you think thats true?

00:28:12: Talking

00:28:13: about free will

00:28:18: always think you make the right decision, or if it makes a wrong decision.

00:28:23: I never really think that way.

00:28:25: as long as we make decisions first then find out later and under the meaning of making a decision is only come out when how to exercise your act.

00:28:42: If you exercise your actor honestly You will get lessons from this And that's more important than the decision itself.

00:28:55: What language do you are thinking in?

00:28:59: When by yourself, when you think...

00:29:03: Strangely enough why I say it is English but if i don't talk with on this kind of topic..I'm not so sure because I didn't think much.

00:29:18: You dont even think that

00:29:19: much.

00:29:20: How did he do that?

00:29:22: You don't read

00:29:22: a lot.

00:29:24: Language is really pretty bad at Jacket.

00:29:28: you Don't have to be joking can be new.

00:29:31: You can use your emotions feelings under which there's no language.

00:29:35: it could really Carry that because all the languages are so cheap and so shallow on the soul.

00:29:45: No, I think languages as pretty better since human health, but because we communicate.

00:29:53: We use that.

00:29:55: But you know yes You build a bridge to cross river.

00:30:00: language is more like that, but if can swim took across River.

00:30:06: so Then when your stream?

00:30:09: You don't even have needed the language,

00:30:11: but we need it.

00:30:12: When we talk with each other I want i want to understand you.

00:30:15: yeah That's why they are.

00:30:18: We have this kind of very shallow and necessary communication because whenever we try to transform our feelings or judgment, we choose in those words which can be very misleading.

00:30:43: I was asking what language you're thinking about?

00:30:47: Because... You were on jail.

00:30:51: Your government put you in jail for eighty-one days, right?

00:30:54: Not really

00:30:55: jail.

00:30:55: In some kind of secret detention

00:30:58: See okay like it's called the Secret Detention You were isolated permanently being watched by at least two guards if I remember correctly.

00:31:06: Yes, permanent.

00:31:08: well yeah constantly

00:31:10: and i figure all you could do most of the time is stay silent.

00:31:18: be with yourself.

00:31:20: I was wondering like for so many days, eighty-one days.

00:31:24: What do you think about?

00:31:27: First...I think humans have the desire to make sense of time So You cannot just stay empty as impossible.

00:31:39: We'll look at those guys who are standing there but they're pretty empty.

00:31:44: They were nineteen twenty years old young soldier.

00:31:47: You immediately know what they are worried about.

00:31:50: They're waiting for the lunch or after their shift, you have to go to an exercise... Or there's a soldier-or military type of thing which is pretty boring and simple.

00:32:14: Being a soldier means that encourage to have any freedom of thinking, you know.

00:32:23: So I understand that they are the people.

00:32:28: training them said has to make them extremely tired all the time occupied because to make them not think so much.

00:32:41: So they have only sleep like four hours a day, the other side's time is all training and also being God...to God me under you know just standing still with their mind empty.

00:33:00: They don't even know who I am And then they cannot ask any question.

00:33:05: We're not allowed talk too?

00:33:06: No The only duty they have is trying to protect me from get hurt, or suicide.

00:33:15: Or whatever...or not falling down and that you report every second into their authority how I behave.

00:33:25: so i think the slavery domination of a human mind as the interesting tactics to really make a human as tool, then that tool can help the authority achieve whatever they want.

00:34:00: What did you learn about yourself in isolation?

00:34:03: Was there anything new you learned?

00:34:06: Nothing new I realized.

00:34:08: without communication You're not even human because If anybody cares about you when in that condition, and if they care for you can do something to really rescue or help out your doubt.

00:34:30: Because it's very hard.

00:34:35: have trust on society.

00:34:39: And

00:34:40: of course later I'm out.

00:34:43: so many people made effort to cry out, ask the government to release me.

00:34:50: Of course I'm fully grateful for that but when you're in this condition try and minimize those kind of thinking.

00:34:58: You'll see your just alone under life only based on heart still bumping And still have a deep breath.

00:35:10: But then...you don't have anything Don't

00:35:18: you have, like a gut feeling that people care?

00:35:21: That people are on the outside helping you or...?

00:35:25: No.

00:35:26: I don't...I don't- I didn't have that even if i was wrong but still..i dont' have it because when my father has been punished for twenty years nobody can help him.

00:35:39: he's cleaning public toilet and then no one could help him at all.

00:35:47: People avoid even to talk to him.

00:35:49: You know, humanity can go very low and that's my early

00:35:59: education.".

00:36:15: How much was your father's influence in you thinking and philosophy?

00:36:27: My

00:36:28: father never tried to influence me because he cannot even cope with the situation, stay alive.

00:36:37: He is really in a very bad shape And also With certain conditions You can not give up Meaningful lessons, because everything is so irrational.

00:36:55: The whole society is irrational.

00:36:57: So whatever you teach your children could be devastating Because how do we deal with the irrational play?

00:37:09: Basically I never had a real education for my father or family But still My father's behaving teaches me a lot.

00:37:21: He is an honest man.

00:37:23: He tried to do his job, you know cleaning the toilet precisely and trying make place clean.

00:37:33: And he worked hard even if never really working in whole life.

00:37:37: But nobody cleaned my toilets before.

00:37:42: I don't even know who cleans them.

00:37:44: Now i clean for them.

00:37:46: What's wrong with that?

00:37:47: So it makes perfect reasoning or argument, I respect him for being such a big heart.

00:37:56: He never cried for this unfair treatment and people would cry that all the time... I've never heard he had a moment.

00:38:10: feels that is unjust.

00:38:15: It's pretty interesting.

00:38:18: What about your mother?

00:38:20: My mother is a very nice housewife taking care of her children wash their clothes and trying to cook Eatable food because we don't have much.

00:38:33: so without my mom the family Disappeared long time ago.

00:38:37: I think I will be disappeared long-time ago, so What's

00:38:43: she doing in China?

00:38:44: She lives in China right

00:38:46: she lives in china.

00:38:47: She is, how do you say?

00:38:54: Still have a very...

00:38:55: Does she have to work or does she like

00:38:58: senior.

00:38:59: Does he get money and can do whatever

00:39:00: she wants?

00:39:02: No no she's kind of like retirement.

00:39:07: She doesn't need to work long time ago but

00:39:10: yeah Like when your successful artist I guess many people think oh my god Weiwei must be rich.

00:39:18: Can you, are able to support your mother?

00:39:21: Could could you send her money?

00:39:24: I can

00:39:25: if i want too but she is pretty self-sufficient.

00:39:31: She got her retirement money and my brother sister's there.

00:39:36: of course they need the money all my money.

00:39:39: it can be theirs But since they're proud person They don't need extra

00:39:47: money.

00:39:48: Do you care about money?

00:39:52: If I have to name something, a carer list less.

00:39:59: Money would be on the top-list.

00:40:01: so i don't care about my money.

00:40:02: I think money means nothing when you're surviving one was in New York of course and make money to pay rent otherwise they'll all be homeless.

00:40:13: but besides paying rent for food box, because I don't need that money.

00:40:22: I think the money only has meaning when you use it and i don't find a right way to use money then the money is useless.

00:40:31: this just no value!

00:40:34: The value comes from how we used it.

00:40:37: if you have hundred bucks or one million The hundred bucks may be worth more than one million because you need the hundred bucks to buy food or two But then you have a one million.

00:40:55: how much can use?

00:40:58: You know, your youth maybe very small percentage already billionaire I think is the poorest person.

00:41:04: It's the billionaire and that because they only used very little.

00:41:08: I was gonna ask we're talking about capitalism That it seems to me that in capitalism All that actually matters is making more money, accumulating even more money instead of knowing what you use with it.

00:41:30: I think there's a sickness to educate people when they have the most secure and luxurious life or get more... admiration, I think that's totally sickness because certainly you don't get anything better than when you do not have the much money.

00:42:00: You know it just everything lost meaning because uh-you don't struggle for that anymore.

00:42:08: then say if your heart can have all the money in the world what are going to?

00:42:16: Yeah, but that means abstract.

00:42:20: If you have all there's no more or less.

00:42:23: it just has this meaning of the usage You don't use money.

00:42:30: than dismeaning yourself I think is pretty pitiful.

00:42:39: How sick is the Chinese society?

00:42:43: The ruling party is communist.

00:42:46: It's communist in name.

00:42:47: They are

00:42:47: not really communists, they don't follow the Communist principle there.

00:42:56: In many ways their... ...they call themselves communist but it is not real communist

00:43:05: But I mean when you go to school at China and learn about communism And ideas of communism Don't Chinese people young people everyday People realize that This is not a communist society.

00:43:24: Everybody understands that it's not communist society.

00:43:27: There are no different from capitalism, society today except their state capitalism Capitalism in here you encourage everybody to own the capital but In China The biggest capital owned by State of course You have super rich people there.

00:43:51: Still, they don't feel safe.

00:43:55: They can be... You know?

00:43:58: The citizens can be devastating to their capital.

00:44:02: So China only difference from the West today.

00:44:06: is there state capitalism?

00:44:08: There's no so-called total free competition.

00:44:15: No But why keep up the facade of communism?

00:44:22: Why do they still, you

00:44:25: know... What's the point?

00:44:29: Tradition.

00:44:30: It is

00:44:32: not tradition it just.

00:44:36: They don't love capitalism.

00:44:39: So why have to change their name?

00:44:42: I never changed my passport even when i was being hurt in there But Chinese passport after thirty years or outside of China or twenty some years.

00:44:56: You know, it's just to change identity which have a strong reason and I don't trust that reason.

00:45:10: so

00:45:12: what other communists real communist thinkers in China left?

00:45:18: The idea of Marx and other communist was okay.

00:45:22: capitalism will destroy itself at some point.

00:45:27: There's no profound thinking.

00:45:29: Those are more philosophical thinking only by a real thinker or... But I think basically society is not run by those deep thinkers, they just have their own memory, you know what?

00:45:52: Their own way.

00:45:54: and Yeah, it's a machine designed for the road.

00:46:00: So... How does censorship differ in China compared to the West?

00:46:11: Because like on paper you know In Germany and in The Constitution It says there is freedom of speech There is no censorship.

00:46:22: But when your book And When You Know Your Work Of Course There Is Some Kind Of Self-Imposed Censorship.

00:46:32: I mean, we talked about thinking freely.

00:46:35: Speaking freely...

00:46:36: I thought when we think and talk about that issue is censorship exists anywhere where there's a power or interest then there will be censorship.

00:46:50: Capitalism under authoritarian would the same it just different form of censorship.

00:47:00: What's the prevailing topic where you can easily explain it to Germans or to Westerners that there's no real freedom of speech.

00:47:16: I mean, what about Israel-Palestine for example?

00:47:22: Well those things are very simple.

00:47:27: You can just say What is not inferior in talk about.

00:47:33: Why Is Not Inferiority To Talk About Like an Israel-Palestine situation, why people avoid to talk about it?

00:47:45: What is behind this kind of regulation or policy from a state level... ...to institutions for media and individuals.

00:48:01: What are the people scared off?

00:48:04: Blowback!

00:48:06: Yeah, but what really they're scared of?

00:48:08: Why do have to be scared off those sense?

00:48:11: and Then there's a clear image people are co-word timid And trying to have some personal interest to be protected not to be hurt by as an unfavorite individuals in society.

00:48:37: So that is not just obvious and very simple.

00:48:46: Nobody wants to harm themselves, nobody want give up this kind of humonious comfortness.

00:48:57: It's easier to go through life in Germany if you avoid being honest.

00:49:06: Let say about Palestine about the genocide in Gaza, about German co-responsibility after our horrible past.

00:49:17: And instead of facing what we are doing now and helping Israel commit its genocide it's easier to not talk about at all than avoid facts then face them because otherwise your life will be stressful.

00:49:37: I think

00:49:40: I can't speak as a journalist for example.

00:49:41: Yeah,

00:49:42: i agree with you that's the general reality of Germany.

00:49:48: but The problem is not Israel and Palestine.

00:49:53: It leaves.

00:49:55: No no...I would say when have this kind of psychological problems That leave permanent scar on germany?

00:50:07: because you are never healing from what happened in the nineteen-thirty forties.

00:50:21: You're not brave enough to say we are a state which will all be right side of history, but rather to see that they are trying Then you're on right wrong side of history again.

00:50:43: So that's a problem.

00:50:45: not always Israel and Gaza is really problems with Germans under.

00:50:51: Is anybody want to being?

00:50:53: Imagined or been seen as the cohort under someone timid too?

00:51:00: even two Honestly speak out about real situation.

00:51:07: I feel it's pretty sad situation

00:51:12: It is.

00:51:13: But why do you think the German society's not brave enough to face?

00:51:18: I don't know, I don' t know why...

00:51:20: You have an idea?

00:51:21: I

00:51:22: can tell that people are healthy.

00:51:27: They go to exercise they go to gym and ride bicycles but their mind cannot be adjusted to reality and can make the right judgment.

00:51:44: I kind of understand

00:51:45: it.".

00:51:46: I'm trying to find out myself?

00:51:49: Well, you know... maybe we're characterized by what- not about whatever they want but characterized by how they are afraid.

00:52:08: You know.. What really scares us that is our character!

00:52:18: And when he lived in Germany for a few years Were people afraid of you?

00:52:23: No, nobody's afraid.

00:52:25: I'm just a stupid artist here and there... Nobody

00:52:31: is afraid.

00:52:33: People canceled your exhibitions for example so they were afraid of their unique voice!

00:52:40: They're not afraid my voice but are afraid that it will lose its business if they show me They don't care.

00:52:49: They're

00:52:50: being selfish when they cancel you?

00:52:51: Yeah, yeah of course nobody afraid someone's been hurt but only afraid that he lost the opportunity.

00:52:59: That is why it's a pity.

00:53:00: You know...they made wrong judgment and gave up something which was right to hide their weakness.

00:53:18: How racist is German society?

00:53:21: I don't know, because... Where

00:53:23: about xenophobia?

00:53:25: I think German accepted refugees' one point two meaning which was the biggest act during Mokers administration.

00:53:43: It's very quite a question and an act You know, better than most European countries.

00:53:55: Some doesn't accept one you know so I cannot criticize German on that.

00:54:03: i think they bear their bigger responsibility for whatever the reason.

00:54:08: yeah

00:54:11: That's in a past what we did.

00:54:14: On the other hand ever since this so-called refugee crisis The german fascists are under rise.

00:54:22: Why do you call them a fascist?

00:54:25: Right wingers, right-wing extremists.

00:54:29: They want to abolish this kind of society.

00:54:34: go back two old times.

00:54:37: You know politicians they are act in Asking the fever or support so that reflects general condition.

00:54:48: Yes, you knows there not just come out a strange idea.

00:54:53: they come because want to be elected and very often, it reflects the general understanding of many others.

00:55:03: They represent

00:55:04: many others.

00:55:06: so normally you know... The situation can even worse right?

00:55:14: But that's why we need a freedom of speech.

00:55:20: We just have get our voice out And not necessary.

00:55:25: all voices is right.

00:55:31: We talked about being brave and being able to think.

00:55:36: And many young people... When I went to school after the reunification from East Germany, you grew up with your teachers explaining what The Nazi Empire was how we tried to destroy the world What Hitler did Jewish people, Sinti and Roma.

00:56:05: And you grew up with okay that's in the past.

00:56:09: this was a sick society... ...and it will never happen again!

00:56:13: This must not ever happen again.. ..and nowadays the strongest party when we look at the Poles they're not in government but like in the Pols are.

00:56:26: of course there are Nazis from back then But it feels like there's not history repeating itself.

00:56:37: One hundred years later in Germany or Europe, but kind of seems to rhyme especially when you look at America with Trump and his right wing people.

00:56:52: do they have the sense that the history kind of repeats itself?

00:56:57: That a hundred years of a war, some kind revolution?

00:57:09: I think history is not just repeat itself.

00:57:14: It's only one history You know.

00:57:18: so we all those So-called left or right Or any struggle it's just in the one history you know its like Always have complex always challenge each other.

00:57:35: and Yeah, it's just like that.

00:57:41: anything can happen.

00:57:42: Of course this is a human decision It's made by humans.

00:57:47: Anything can happen

00:57:48: yes but

00:57:49: it seems to be like everybody is focusing on The bad version of what could have been.

00:57:56: you know I from for my point-of view look so hard To find people who focus on?

00:58:06: What could happen in the good way how we can You know, we talk about freedom free ourselves have a better life overcome capitalism.

00:58:16: you know all this Instead.

00:58:19: We are focusing on what?

00:58:20: What do we are afraid of?

00:58:23: So why they're afraid off

00:58:26: me?

00:58:27: yeah Well first month I'm afraid of us not seeing what is possible in a good way and Going back to the past as an voting or letting those people in power with the ideas of the past.

00:58:51: I think that talk is too general and you know, there's a sense it has to be very specific.

00:59:00: what is in the past on?

00:59:02: why not would not work?

00:59:05: are afraid off?

00:59:07: The past also designed by human beings right they have strong reason to achieve, what does it want to achieve?

00:59:19: I think i'm afraid of being even less free in the future than now.

00:59:26: But still

00:59:29: if we call...

00:59:31: Still the definition of freedom is not quite clear.

00:59:41: What's more free or less free from very beginning?

00:59:46: there are no such things as a freedom unless you put enough struggle.

00:59:52: So that means by less free, I mean if you have less struggle.

00:59:57: so yeah i think we just have to put more struggle towards your

01:00:01: freedom.".

01:00:04: If he personally found the meaning of life?

01:00:08: Meaning of Life is come from the discovery it's we just had to wherever this kind uh wondering why we are here, and how we become an individual or a life itself.

01:00:34: And the whole way can cope with situation of others also since they're so profound almost unsolvable.

01:00:45: you know that would keep us busy enough to pass this short few decades and we sometimes will never get a conclusion.

01:00:59: There's no absolute answer on where the life is really come from, under what they'll end up for.

01:01:07: So that enough?

01:01:09: For life or why do you have to seek for so-called freedom?

01:01:16: We all have... everybody has the freedom to ask those questions.

01:01:24: So we don't have much time left, but are you afraid of dying?

01:01:28: Are you free to death?

01:01:30: I think we have to celebrate this just like a way celebrate leaving because that is the Conclusion over one sentence and then they don't want to leave us sentence which is just half speaking.

01:01:48: How do you celebrate death

01:01:51: celebrate of that has been very calm to receive the last moment.

01:02:01: How do you know that?

01:02:03: Hmm, how did he knew then?

01:02:05: well your fortunate You don't know about but very often not so fortunate.

01:02:12: So yeah I think a sudden death could be good.

01:02:16: sudden death

01:02:17: yes because Your desk come without even conscious.

01:02:22: so it's a sudden dice is like a sudden born, you know We never know we're gonna be born.

01:02:30: That's just one

01:02:33: sperm

01:02:33: with one egg and you know, is it?

01:02:44: Do artists like you do feel that you have a responsibility to society?

01:02:54: I feel for responsibility only because I'm eating well.

01:03:00: I'm dressed okay, but i never really made a fabric and ever Really growing any sense on the you know?

01:03:09: On the planet.

01:03:10: And I think it's not fair for someone.

01:03:13: producers under they have to work hard and I just speak here talk empty and Under provide some works which been called art and sell extremely expensive, but mostly only can be selected by the super rich under so-called culture institutions.

01:03:39: very often they know nothing about art.

01:03:42: Really?

01:03:43: You don't know that.

01:03:44: I tell you...I

01:03:45: didn't know it.

01:03:45: no

01:03:46: this can be a conclusion of the conversation.

01:03:51: They do not

01:03:52: know art?

01:03:53: They just some kind of cultural bureaucrats.

01:04:02: Do you think they know what the rich, people who buy their art like?

01:04:08: They know how to play a game.

01:04:11: What's the game?

01:04:13: Selling buying and selling...what is it for them?

01:04:18: It means that games are just like any product.

01:04:26: People sell perfumes.

01:04:32: setting cigarettes or liquor, you know?

01:04:36: It's all kind of games.

01:04:39: And the human society needs a game to get high... ...or do whatever they like too.

01:04:48: You can never understand that human behavior is such mystery.

01:04:54: I think your time is up.

01:04:56: Yes Let's conclude but let's try to understand humans.

01:05:04: Let's keep trying to understand.

01:05:07: Wait, wait.

01:05:08: thanks so much for being here.

01:05:10: Thanks for playing the game

01:05:11: or

01:05:12: a public conversation.

01:05:14: Thanks guys for watching and helping us play the game of independent journalism by you guys supporting us.

01:05:22: No sponsors no paywall no merchandise And that is it.

01:05:27: see you tomorrow.