#842 - Philosoph Sari Nusseibeh über Frieden zwischen Israelis & Palästinensern

00:00:00: The only way to get violence, over-violence is somehow slowly.

00:00:04: use conversation.

00:00:06: Use understanding.

00:00:08: Use psychology if you like.

00:00:10: Use patience until the point where there's no violence to be followed.

00:00:19: I think at end of day problem between Israel and Palestine with the situation directly amongst themselves, between them.

00:00:33: And I think that Israel...

00:00:34: In their own time without

00:00:36: foreign pressure?

00:00:37: Unfortunately in their own times!

00:00:39: You have to go through the process you have to….

00:00:42: It's

00:00:42: been sixty years though

00:00:45: But things can go on for hundreds of years now..in this part of the world right?

00:00:53: Alright new episode of Young and Evil New Guest.

00:00:55: who are you?

00:00:56: I'm Serena Sebe, Palestinian and a Jerusalemite.

00:01:02: And have lived in Jerusalem

00:01:03: for the

00:01:04: most part of my life.

00:01:05: Are we...in Jerusalem right

00:01:07: now?

00:01:08: Yes!

00:01:08: We're in Jerusalem..we are on Eastern part of Jerusalem On the edge of East-West Jerusalem.

00:01:15: So were you occupied

00:01:17: territory?

00:01:18: Absolutely Doesn't feel

00:01:20: occupied.

00:01:21: No because this was next as soon it is occupied.

00:01:24: It came under Israeli law And the laws that exist in East Jerusalem are totally different from those that exists in rest of occupied territories.

00:01:34: Nonetheless, I would say about ninety-ninety five percent of Palestinians living east Jerusalem... ...are not Israelis.

00:01:43: So we're not Israelis.

00:01:44: We have just residents who've been given residence cards or rights and uh..we are treated like unoccupied people.

00:01:53: Well you are right?

00:01:55: Of course yes.

00:01:56: How are the laws in East Jerusalem different from West Bank and Gaza?

00:02:00: Well, In nineteen sixty seven on Israel came to occupy everything west bank Gaza.

00:02:07: They basically Extended their own laws To apply it too.

00:02:15: an enlarged east Jerusalem.

00:02:18: So they enlarge.

00:02:19: each is Jerusalem.

00:02:20: The area till up about seventy square kilometers From about ten or twelve, I can't remember exactly.

00:02:28: And then they applied Israeli law.

00:02:29: Now that means basically That there were the masters of everything you could do here including Everything from The small thing to large things.

00:02:41: We would just give them residence rights.

00:02:45: But if we hear what their doing in terms of squeezing us and or very small areas for building zones.

00:02:56: What they do when we try to build houses, offer ourselves... You'll realize that you're basically living under a lot of pressure by foreign power.

00:03:09: So yes We are living here and have some rights as residents.

00:03:13: We can travel around, go to Tel Aviv For instance, work in Tel Avive.

00:03:18: People from the West Bank cannot cross over uh at the moment and we're not subject to the laws of the or regulations of the palestinian authority in ramallah

00:03:31: if you You know Did a crime here?

00:03:36: Who would be

00:03:37: totally um, of course

00:03:39: but like let's imagine.

00:03:41: You were criminal Like who would be responsible for you?

00:03:45: The IDF is military law.

00:03:48: Not the military, not the idea of a love course.

00:03:50: they are used everywhere including in Jerusalem but uh... You're basically under the law off the land on the country of Israel.

00:04:00: state

00:04:01: civil law.

00:04:02: so civil law but you can actually peace.

00:04:05: I'm not taken once for administrative detention.

00:04:08: administrative detention

00:04:10: three months and jail.

00:04:12: that's right.

00:04:13: I was let out after three months, but that was under something the British actually had set up during the mandatory period.

00:04:23: And Israelis when they established themselves as a country went on using and are still using... ...and misusing!

00:04:31: Now what does that administrative mean?

00:04:33: It means you can be picked-up or thrown into prison cell.

00:04:39: You cannot be accused of all kinds of things without having the right to defend yourself, not even know what the charges are.

00:04:48: And some people can spend you know three months or six month.

00:04:51: period of detention can be extended continually.

00:04:56: Some people have actually stayed in jail under that definition for years and years.

00:05:07: That's just one way of dealing with us.

00:05:09: Okay, so civil law applies for people in East

00:05:13: Jerusalem.

00:05:14: So Civil Law applies but when the need arises you can be picked up and then treated as they at the whim of Israeli army or Israeli government.

00:05:25: When I got it your house seems to be very old looks Very historical looks very nice.

00:05:31: if they ever try to kick you out Or like buy you out?

00:05:35: You know force you out.

00:05:37: They haven't yet dared to do so, but it's something that happens to people all the time.

00:05:43: Um... they might have their eyes set on places here or around me.

00:05:48: I wouldn't put it past them But it hasn't happened yet and i'm here And I've been here you know for many years.

00:05:56: You feel safe?

00:05:59: Uh don't actually feel safe To tell you the truth.

00:06:02: uh..I feel That we're under constant Worry and concerned because one never knows exactly what Israel has up its sleeve to do next.

00:06:21: That's crazy!

00:06:30: Like we went to Jericho last night, I wanted to have shawarma with my team And it took me into my favorite shawama place in the middle of of Jericho, we just started dinner and then the IDF came in like with ten humvees or something.

00:06:48: And they were shooting and probably looking for.

00:06:52: someone was some people when he brought a huge surveillance drone who are shouting, shooting there trying to intimidate me because I wasn't trying film it but a soldier pointed at Like.

00:07:11: it felt

00:07:12: like

00:07:12: for thirty minutes, life stopped and there was a sense of terror in the air.

00:07:20: And then they vanished.

00:07:22: apparently I guess they didn't find anyone.

00:07:26: Then one minute later... Life went on!

00:07:29: The Palestinians were just like yeah all right It's over everything is fine because we still kind-of under shock because this happened for the first time.

00:07:44: And it was just so amazing to see people kind of relaxed and seemingly feeling that there's nothing special, when we talked with them they were like what?

00:07:59: This happens every week at least or twice a week!

00:08:03: It is unbelievable.

00:08:04: but that's Jericho

00:08:07: That's the West Bank, but every now and again you have problems here in Jerusalem.

00:08:13: Is it demonstrations?

00:08:14: Is it confrontations between Jews and Arabs?

00:08:17: I don't know what... We had a place across from there which is called Tombs of The Kings.

00:08:24: It was owned by French?

00:08:28: Well, it's owned by the French but contested by various Jewish... groups and I think it was a couple of months ago.

00:08:36: They had major things over there Before that.

00:08:39: we have down there in Sheikh Jarrah In houses, I don't know if you heard this last year?

00:08:44: I think three years ago.

00:08:45: they're again major confrontations between the army and settlers And between the Palestinians and their supporters because he Because of the attempt to take over those houses.

00:09:01: So yes, I mean but what can you do?

00:09:03: You know your live.

00:09:04: You're worried never sure What's going to happen But you have to leave and I think you know what you saw in Jericho is exactly that.

00:09:13: I Sometimes try to go to Jericho for instance And i'm never sure when I go if there's going To be a roadblock.

00:09:21: There was a roadblock yesterday.

00:09:23: They were looking for someone, I guess they were searching every car

00:09:27: but it comes and goes.

00:09:30: so one you know.

00:09:31: One day You go And you can Go all the way from Jerusalem to Jericho in thirty minutes Yeah?

00:09:35: And one Day you go get Stopped at The Roadblock Either Going In or Coming out.

00:09:40: Then You Can Be there For Two Or Three Hours.

00:09:43: So It's Very Uncertain Everything.

00:09:45: Okay

00:09:46: i sent Our Videos To Like Some Israeli Colleagues Journalists And They Were like Okay, what happened?

00:09:52: and I'm like well can you ask the IDF?

00:09:54: Like okay as in your location.

00:09:56: The time won't happen.

00:09:58: Ask them.

00:09:59: they were like it's not...they won't answer.

00:10:02: They wouldn't comment unless someone got shot And you have a picture of something that will even come out and say

00:10:11: You have to look into number of roadblocks.

00:10:13: There are many roadblock on the way to villages, towns and cities coming in & out throughout West Bank.

00:10:25: So sometimes it just takes... if a roadblock is stationary there for twenty-four hours so that can take you know hours of people crossing from one place or another And some times they are not stationary.

00:10:38: They come and go like the ones in Jericho.

00:10:41: That also makes me feel You can't organize your day or life properly, normally.

00:10:50: I mean you're a philosopher and my question regarding if you feel safe under occupation was kind of a philosophical question because... Can you ever feel safe being occupied?

00:11:09: No but

00:11:11: actually like the occupied army is supposed to protect the civilians who are occupied, right?

00:11:25: We looked upon as enemies and we look up on us potential terrorists.

00:11:33: And we're looking at our presence in a country that people believe many people on this side don't have rights to be in.

00:11:46: So, and you know looking ahead then looking around.

00:11:51: You always wonder whether the next step will come?

00:11:53: You saw what they're doing in Gaza or did well that it back in forty eight so even at sixty seven pushing people out of here.

00:12:05: And so looking ahead your always worried this would be happening again because off the drive to establish a kind primarily your state.

00:12:20: So there's few Palestinians as possible,

00:12:25: I mean you mentioned like potential terrorism?

00:12:28: You were born in nineteen forty nine years been around for a long time so you've seen every aspect of the occupation was their and ever a point in your life where you thought about okay i'm gonna fight nonviolent resistance?

00:12:51: Like a young guy, we're like...

00:12:53: You know sometimes in roadblocks.

00:12:59: Sometimes the people that try to overtake you out of order and they drive all the way past to the front.

00:13:08: when you become very fed up You think to yourself, I wish had a gun with nails and I can shoot their tires and puncture them.

00:13:19: So horrible thoughts like this of course exist.

00:13:24: you cannot deny that but only sort-of thing about them.

00:13:29: if i do it all theoretically And I've always thought right from the beginning That The Only Way To Deal With What We Have At Our Hands Is Through Through peaceful means

00:13:43: non-violent.

00:13:44: Non violent, of course.

00:13:45: Why?

00:13:47: Because at the end of the day This is how things can end How they conflict in and you Can use violence But the violence doesn't end it not In all situations Of course.

00:14:02: I mean in some cases You go and kill somebody And then gone.

00:14:05: yeah but here in this case and this Is just one example.

00:14:10: You have a large population, Palestinian population backed up by larger much larger Arab population and we're living side-by-side you know Foot by next to foot if you like with the Israelis.

00:14:25: And they just can't be done By one party totally disappearing the other through violence.

00:14:33: So we have to find a way to live together.

00:14:37: However ugly that may might look too At the moment, you have to see beyond that.

00:14:46: You must look for humanity in the other and...you're surprised!

00:14:53: I was just thinking about like someone like Ben Gvir or Smodritch?

00:14:57: Like how can you see the humanity of someone like Minister Ben Gvir or

00:15:02: SmODritch?!

00:15:05: You know a lot of people who like that are not sort-of born.

00:15:08: Like, necessarily they don't Necessarily want to be like that?

00:15:12: People you know end up being criminals or end up Being Psychotic or whatever But bank there and smart rich our few people They do not represent.

00:15:25: I've lived here now for many years as you just pointed out And i have come to know many many Israelis from different angles different points of view And I'm sure many Israelis have come to know, many Palestinians and you've seen beyond what they saw.

00:15:43: To begin with the image that there are of other... ...I think it's possible!

00:15:50: If its difficult.

00:15:51: nonetheless It is necessary to try and continue if like trying find a way to get an understanding on others side.

00:16:06: What about like, I mean from a German point of view many people are horrified by Hamas.

00:16:13: Can you see humanity in what Hamas is doing?

00:16:21: Now that's very difficult question... Yes!

00:16:25: You know i don't see it as being humanistic or humanitarian and I don't see what the Israelis, a lot of... What they do as humanitarian either.

00:16:40: but their point is to look beyond this.

00:16:42: To look into it deeper And think you know..What made them like that?

00:16:48: Can we find way get over it?

00:16:52: This is real challenge.

00:16:53: i think The real challenges are two people fighting each one for existence against other.

00:17:02: Get the two sides to see how they can coexist with one another.

00:17:07: How?

00:17:10: Well, do you know Shahrazad?

00:17:12: No

00:17:13: Have you heard of Shahrazad?

00:17:15: One Thousand and One Nights.

00:17:17: Yeah Shahrazat One Thousander Nights is a story.

00:17:23: I think it's very good story.

00:17:26: She's young maiden And living in place where the king or caliph whatever picks up a young maiden every night the best there is in town and calls her in, has an evening of pleasure with her.

00:17:42: And then slits her throat... Every night!

00:17:46: Then turn comes to daughter one his ministers.

00:17:53: Her name is Shahrazad and king tells father send your daughter over.

00:17:59: The daughter comes but she's clever.

00:18:02: And so and she knows what the king is after.

00:18:05: She knows, What's about to happen?

00:18:06: Yes well no not.

00:18:07: what's About To Happen what happens usually?

00:18:11: and So she wants to change.

00:18:13: Change in The Direction yes, so she starts telling a tale.

00:18:17: Do the King.

00:18:19: and it's so exciting with him That the King at the end falls asleep but the tail isn't finished.

00:18:25: He falls asleep the night passes they're waking up the next morning the night Is over.

00:18:30: The king wants to wait until the evening and hear, rest of a tale.

00:18:34: What happened?

00:18:36: So she goes on night after night... A thousand and one nights at end!

00:18:42: At the end ...the idea is that they actually come to see away for both live together with the King changing his previous kind of dispositions psychotic views.

00:18:57: Now the question comes up, it came like this.

00:19:03: So first night he was able to put him into sleep.

00:19:05: Why didn't Shahruzad get a knife in his bedroom and then kill him while he was asleep?

00:19:16: She could have actually prepared this conspiracy with her father who is in court Everybody's against their king.

00:19:24: maybe they could've arranged a coup d'etat and used her cleverness to get there.

00:19:31: And then I decided the real message in the story of Shah Razaad is that if he had done that, and killed him... ...and somebody else came and took his place very quickly.. The next person who takes this will be just as bad or worse than he was.

00:19:47: A vicious cycle!

00:19:48: A vicious cycles.

00:19:49: only way to get violence over violence Is somehow slowly.

00:19:54: use conversation Use understanding use psychology, if you like.

00:19:59: Use patience until you get to the point where... You make sure there's no violence to be followed To come after.

00:20:12: It is in my story.

00:20:13: how do you Make this into reality?

00:20:16: Here?

00:20:17: How would you get Ben Gvir and Hamas Talking for one thousand one night?

00:20:22: I am not about Ben Gvir and Hamaz as such.

00:20:26: People have different ideologies.

00:20:27: Let Bibi

00:20:27: and Hamad

00:20:31: You you continue standing, you know your ground Not using violence and trying to create conversations.

00:20:40: now what's happening here in the country between Israelis and Palestinians is on one hand.

00:20:45: What do see?

00:20:47: The drama of the violence being used against Palestinians against Palestinian structures farmers you name it but On the other hand what you see?

00:21:00: Palestinian laborers for instance are trying to jump over the wall, you know they've put up often getting shot at by Israeli soldiers but day after today will try and do it in order get over-the-wall.

00:21:14: go find a job on an Israeli building site.

00:21:21: And if we start working like this in the past And the people on other side of Jailies are actually good relations.

00:21:34: If you go to various institutions like hospitals, People say that there is a lot of Palestinians working in hospitals side by side with Jews.

00:21:45: Go to other institutions and find businessmen working together.

00:21:49: So this is reality which sits behind the dramatic reality or violence we see Which tells you that if we can peel off the surface of violence That behind that, he can get to a place where normal human beings on both sides Can actually get one very well together.

00:22:11: and You know If you look at Israelis into look at Palestinians many of them.

00:22:16: You know Very often you'll find they you can't distinguish between Not only in their looks but even under habits like

00:22:25: picture the political level to political leaders, is it easier for the political leaders?

00:22:31: To choose violence than talk because they want like in Israel.

00:22:35: They want to get reelected?

00:22:38: I mean you know, political leaders are usually people who will want to become leaders or stay leaders and you know violence as a kind of attractive way Because they can't do very much else to their People And so they choose violence.

00:22:52: but The average person I think Like yourself.

00:22:56: I mean are you a violent person?

00:22:58: No, no I think most people the average people or not Are not violent

00:23:05: and scared of it.

00:23:06: You're scared of violence.

00:23:07: yes

00:23:07: that was.

00:23:08: I was scared yesterday

00:23:10: Down in Jericho.

00:23:11: Yeah Well you should come and stay here for longer periods And then you sort off.

00:23:16: It's a psychological way of dealing with it to

00:23:19: get used to do.

00:23:20: Get use to it.

00:23:21: you start sort of knowing how to live in between moments or violence in between moments of drama.

00:23:30: The thing is, you wouldn't choose a life like that.

00:23:32: but on the other hand given the fact that we have our lives like this what do you chose to do about it?

00:23:40: Do your choice go and use violence yourself knowing that will never end.

00:23:46: just continue not with yourselves maybe kids grandkids.

00:23:52: so if you try find And it sounds much more rational to try and find a suitable coexistence.

00:24:02: Do you think, or do you mean that Israelis and Palestinian leaders should decide?

00:24:08: Okay let's talk instead of use violence for once.

00:24:12: Or is there like responsibility by the international community especially like Israeli supporters or supporters of Israel Like Germany the

00:24:25: U.S.,

00:24:27: can we force the Israelis or pressure them into talking?

00:24:33: You know, a lot of Palestinians and Israelis think that this is what's needed – you need Israeli friends, international friends from Israel to come and pressure Israel.

00:24:45: Without American help, Israel…

00:24:47: They're

00:24:49: militaries.

00:24:51: I'm not personally totally convinced by that, By the way... I think at end of day The problem is between the Israeli and Palestinian And it's the Israelis and Palestinians who have to deal with this situation Directly amongst themselves Between them In

00:25:11: their own time without

00:25:13: Well, unfortunately in their own time.

00:25:16: I mean you have to go through the process.

00:25:18: You have two.

00:25:19: it's been

00:25:19: sixty years sorry

00:25:21: But things can go on for hundreds of years and this part is a world right?

00:25:27: Yes

00:25:27: And that's indeed actually you know why.

00:25:30: going for a quick solution?

00:25:32: I mean if you need something off course That will maintain as much stability pieces as possible But at the same time you should look forward to a time and work Towards creating uptime when there will be real peace When both sides would be perfectly happy satisfied with the kind of Peace that they've created for themselves.

00:25:58: By the way, if we look back For instance At Oslo agreement Well, that was very strange.

00:26:09: I mean it came after a lot of fighting between the two sides and Hamas Was there?

00:26:13: And Everybody else on this and these soldiers were there and we weren't hitting at each other and beating each other up.

00:26:20: Rabin himself was calling for breaking the bones of Palestinian boys.

00:26:25: I don't know if you've come across that.

00:26:27: no oh yes just before he Before he actually Changed his attitude and decided We can't beat the struggle for peace and independence by breaking people's bones.

00:26:45: And we have to speak with Palestinians, that is what they did!

00:26:48: That actually made them stand out in Israel as a leader who could take the courageous step forward.

00:26:58: He got killed?

00:27:00: Yes he got killed.

00:27:02: Some people get killed are good people And it's because they're good.

00:27:11: If you like

00:27:12: any compromise will.

00:27:14: this Will be dissatisfying for the radicals on both sides, right?

00:27:20: Yes There was always like that chance of new violence.

00:27:23: yes But look I mean You had a situation where four for harmonious since Four since six to seven till about eighty-seven eighty eight That's about twenty two years when there is confrontation only primarily between Palestinians and Israelis, demonstrations, killings, detentions imprisonments you name it.

00:27:46: And then at the end of the first Intifada... The First Major Intifadah in the Occupied Territories.

00:27:53: You know this position of Rabin that I should break their bones.

00:27:57: Then suddenly a whole transformation twist!

00:28:01: The leaders say we want to make peace.

00:28:03: A critical mass on both sides say we are with you and they go forward, try to make peace.

00:28:12: It fails unfortunately because I couldn't negotiate the two sides in a way that didn't use their opportunity given them.

00:28:21: but what that shows is it's possible for us transform our situation of violence into one of possible peace building.

00:28:31: You just mentioned the first anti-fadda at the end of the eighties?

00:28:38: People say that I was involved, certainly.

00:28:42: Non-violently?

00:28:43: In my case yes and nonviolent.

00:28:46: The person you've had it wasn't violent

00:28:48: It wasn't actually no... there were people who are trying to make it violent.

00:28:53: There's always this happening But iIwas pushing for a nonviolent program for basically reaching the situation where we can declare independence.

00:29:09: Where, actually start our civil administration by ourselves even without and then reach to negotiation with Israel?

00:29:17: that was a program.

00:29:19: it consisted of two parts.

00:29:21: one part what I in mind had called disengagement from Israeli system occupation.

00:29:29: That's to say not pay them taxes, not work in their offices or the organizations.

00:29:34: Not deal with them... ...not accept their permits and non-periments And create your own!

00:29:42: And that was a build up.

00:29:43: So there is disengagement.

00:29:45: There were civilian built ups Reaching the point where we declared independence.

00:29:50: We called for negotiations of Israel For a two state solution And yes, the idea was non-violence.

00:29:59: It has to be a nonviolent but there are people among Palestinians who wanted violence.

00:30:04: Hamas had already also begun forming itself at that point in time by the way and There were problems with Hamas of their time between peoples who wanted this and people want it back.

00:30:15: But on the whole I think the majority ruled.

00:30:18: The majority was for peace.

00:30:21: That brought the PLO Arafat into the West Bank.

00:30:24: Did people, like consider you a leader or did you want to be a leader during that time?

00:30:31: I didn't want to become a leader and i didn't show myself off as the leader either.

00:30:35: So uh... And at this point if had shown me how much I wanted then I would have ended up in jail.

00:30:41: Which is true but

00:30:43: for totally different reasons because they don't have real evidence against us anyway.

00:30:51: Did they tell you eventually after?

00:30:52: They let you out of the three months what would they charge your with?

00:30:56: no.

00:30:56: No, look I mean i know What did it because he came to uh in here?

00:31:01: Well now isn't here as somewhere else.

00:31:03: that came Of course.

00:31:04: The soldiers came surrounded.

00:31:05: the house picked me up and took Me In the middle of the night.

00:31:08: And um i wasn't sure It was happening.

00:31:11: of Course i had no idea why they did this Because by then at the time i Had actually stopped my active involvement in the first and father, but anyway The reason they picked me up then They said was because they heard a telephone call that I made with somebody in the PLO outside Who had the Iraqi ambassador sitting next to him?

00:31:38: And he passed him the phone and asked Me To talk to this guy.

00:31:42: And That Guy Was asking me you know we are for the Palestinians and how Are You?

00:31:47: so i was talking to them But you know, I am not stupid.

00:31:52: I was talking to people left right and center on the phone knowing that everything I said is nothing sort of secret but they came in and accused me being an Iraqi spy at this time.

00:32:07: That wasn't a proper accusation it's just public relations.

00:32:12: First night he took my into his cell by myself.

00:32:16: It was in civilian compound And I was scared because, my God!

00:32:22: These are rockets falling on Israel and people will associate me with a rocket terrorist.

00:32:31: The first thing that happened to me is... A man.. ..a civil criminal in the code.

00:32:39: Someone who has a scarred face Probably a drug addict or a drug seller pusher Or something like this.

00:32:47: i don't know what.

00:32:47: And they had a radio, he could have a radio with him who came up to the cell and looked at me said do you hear what these pastors are talking about?

00:33:01: At that time Netanyahu was representative of Israel's United Nations.

00:33:06: And Netanyah was accusing saying bragging that it caught aspiring.

00:33:11: I was one of those guys.

00:33:14: This guy belongs in the underworld With whom I had nothing to do, you know for all the previous years.

00:33:23: Comes to me and says do hear that what these bastards are talking about?

00:33:27: You.

00:33:28: so he's attacking his government And actually realizing that the government action against me was unjust.

00:33:37: Now very it say its very.

00:33:39: It was a very soothing for me.

00:33:40: I mean to know that at least there someone on the other side understands What this situation really is like.

00:33:47: Interesting

00:33:47: yeah very interesting.

00:33:48: thank you mention Regarding the first Intifada that Hamas was a new player.

00:33:55: At the time, did you realize what kind of player they could become?

00:34:04: They were basically the opposition to Arafat and Fatah right?

00:34:09: The Islamic movement started appearing before And already when I was teaching there In the eighties, they were beginning to develop.

00:34:20: They're beginning to grow.

00:34:21: The Islamic movement in the campuses across West Bank Gaza has a kind of opposition Yes...to mainstream national movements and we had problems with them You know..in the mid-eighties And I have problems with it in general.

00:34:41: Now when the Intifada started I could see that they have turned themselves into a front, an active front on the ground.

00:34:49: Alongside the Front of the National Movement and yes i could see there was problem And indeed some actually in fighting took place between two sides.

00:35:04: At one stage early-on inside jails there was a problem between people in Hamas and the international movement.

00:35:14: And it was going to spread out, so something had to be done... I'm not sure if you can imagine or recall that they were trying very quickly by producing a joint kind of communication with the international movements quieting things down.

00:35:36: but Do they extend that the national movement failed to deliver?

00:35:41: To their people, what it promised.

00:35:43: The Hamas Movement of course grew in strength and power And uh... It has until we saw What happened in Gaza recently.

00:35:53: So yeah I mean unfortunately They use a force actually right from the outset Not just by Hamas but even By the National Movement Right From the Outset For me as an onlooker, observer if you like with some sanity in my head was never something that Was up my earlier or to my taste and I always knew That this is not the way to go Which is why even early on in the eighties.

00:36:24: I called for Israel to annex us.

00:36:27: We're gonna talk about that.

00:36:28: Okay

00:36:29: But like do you remember what your day?

00:36:32: It was like on October seven twenty-twenty three

00:36:34: Do i remember?

00:36:35: it was like Yeah.

00:36:38: How did it feel when you saw?

00:36:41: I want to tell you something, although i have a television screen here... ...I don't watch the news at all.

00:36:49: It's very nice TV and I only watched Korean movies not movies what is called series romantic or science fiction.

00:36:59: this is Korean.

00:37:01: They're very soothing, you know everything is good at the end.

00:37:06: You know that you go to heaven regardless what happens in between.

00:37:10: Do recommend me some stuff later?

00:37:12: I don't really like going into them but... So no i started getting of course on WhatsApp and so on seeing what there is um..I didn't form opinions quickly And so I wasn't sure what was happening.

00:37:32: digest exactly what happened with the Palestinians who were doing to the Israelis, for instance.

00:37:39: The first twenty-four hours or less twelve hours.

00:37:45: I didn't know what Hamas was upto why it was doing and i kind of suspended my judgment about this whole thing.

00:37:58: you know people a lot of people on the Palestinian side around me

00:38:00: where

00:38:03: we're doing things.

00:38:05: Yes, I could see that Hamas has done something where you know Palestinian military or violent resistance hadn't been done before but i wasn't sure at all about whether it will lead apart from what they did in the first twenty four hours as a strategy and policy?

00:38:21: Yeah!

00:38:23: I was not really sure until today of course But it certainly made things worse, I think for us.

00:38:42: Besides massacring Israelis they did a disservice to the Palestinian people?

00:38:48: Well of course don't you think so?

00:38:50: yeah many Palestinians don't.

00:38:54: or Palestine supporters in the West.

00:38:57: I know people who... Palestinian

00:39:00: supporters in the West are not in, you know.

00:39:03: People usually are more raw than a king really when they're further away from the scene so to speak.

00:39:12: and this is how it is.

00:39:16: The idea simply that there's a wrong at right here.

00:39:21: now This form of distance seems very clear.

00:39:24: There's a Wrong.

00:39:26: The wrong is Israel's occupation of us, Israel's creation actually also seen as a wrong.

00:39:35: I can go into this if you like.

00:39:37: and then there's the right... ...the right are Palestinians who have been taken over whose land has being cobbled up with them And what they do?

00:39:47: They only thing that they could do is resist and fight and shoot and so on and shooting and fighting is a rightful thing to do.

00:39:55: And this is how the picture has looked at, was seen.

00:39:58: So it's easy to say from a distance... This was Hamas, I mean forget Islam and Muslim or whatever but.. ..this was military attempt by Palestinians on their occupation.

00:40:10: An act of resistance through the occupation?

00:40:13: That's right!

00:40:16: Or opposition or something.

00:40:18: It's easier to see that unless you're prejudiced Are

00:40:22: You?!

00:40:24: You see, you can be prejudiced on one side or the other.

00:40:27: So it should be careful!

00:40:48: that the Israeli response to October seventh would be this tough.

00:40:57: I didn't, you did?

00:40:59: No i didn't realize it was this stuff...I thought they were more sane but Israelis went mad.

00:41:05: yes

00:41:06: Why do think they went mad?

00:41:07: why?

00:41:07: Yes?

00:41:09: Well there are two reasons I think The shock of being penetrated which is something for them.

00:41:23: How can I put it?

00:41:24: Totally unexpected, unforeseen thing that could never happen.

00:41:30: You created Israel to provide a safe haven for the Jews and you create this army which is the strongest in the region maybe further In order to protect Jews And then suddenly your wall is penetrated broken And the security of Jews is under threat.

00:41:54: It's a shocking thing in whole project of Zionism, Israel to prevent this from happening and so that one thing So their reaction was...and then killings as you put it of Israelis I didn't see but lot them apparently women maybe raped to begin with.

00:42:23: A massacre is a massacre, murder's the murderer.

00:42:26: you know whoever it is committed by.

00:42:28: and if I were on the Israeli side seeing this happening to me I'd be also very angry about that.

00:42:36: so he put two together.

00:42:39: then they sort of angered his reaction by Israel.

00:42:47: There's a third element though and the third element is A political one, and it's not in the calculations of people who react immediately to what happened.

00:42:58: And this third element has to do with you know.

00:43:01: Maybe we can use the opportunity To get rid of the Palestinians take more territory.

00:43:08: I think that

00:43:10: That's what Spatulocz said like right after

00:43:12: that.

00:43:12: Right and I think, you know certain out I would say certain sectors within the army with in political echelon probably thought this to be a good thing.

00:43:23: so This was kind of cynical way for looking at things You know.

00:43:28: let me put it this way Let us assume Smotris really wasn't so much angered or So much really but he thought It Was A Good Thing to use in order take more territory.

00:43:41: And then, you know this is a cynical political kind of thing.

00:43:46: so You have all these reactions At the same time.

00:43:51: there wasn't enough Let me put it not Something against what happened but at least something too Present different point-of-view on the Palestinian side.

00:44:06: There wasn't sufficiently clear position on the Palestinian side to say, certainly not by authority.

00:44:12: The authority was in a position actually responsible for standing up and saying exactly what should have been said at that time which is denouncing actual attack.

00:44:26: before renouncing reaction of the attack, genocidal reaction.

00:44:31: The first thing you should denounce is the attack itself.

00:44:35: Yeah, which is a murderous attack and that would justify your defense later.

00:44:40: But both sides

00:44:41: do not be hypocritical.

00:44:43: yes but look both sides are Hypocritical or were in this case

00:44:50: And those sides need to talk as we talked about.

00:44:52: on

00:44:53: both sides Yes need to settle down Because It's more important to try and build the future that is livable than To prove hubris or prove power.

00:45:09: prove your right or prove, you know whatever it's so.

00:45:17: So talking as they wait before

00:45:21: Why do you think?

00:45:21: It's a genocide in Gaza?

00:45:23: why

00:45:24: yes.

00:45:24: Why is there a genocide?

00:45:26: I mean their Israeli NGOs Calling it a genocide.

00:45:29: There's a UN independent commission founding four or five

00:45:35: forget about legal terms because that's what people started arguing About and then became an academic issue.

00:45:42: It became an issued to be discussed in universities, you know between philosophers of law And human rights.

00:45:49: is this genus?

00:45:50: I don't know.

00:45:51: What does it matter?

00:45:53: I didn't think it matters.

00:45:54: II.

00:45:54: don't care what you call it actually But there are certain facts that you have to face and one fact is it's so many people were killed civilians Clearly in a blood rage, in a murderous whatever else in massacres.

00:46:13: clearly There's a political plan behind it or project or hope if your like his which has two empty Gaza of Palestinians.

00:46:24: There is the sense.

00:46:26: maybe we are next here, you know in the West Bank and in Jerusalem.

00:46:31: And only today I was actually listening to a report about... and by an Israeli account remember his name?

00:46:42: About Jordan being next!

00:46:47: It's a question of time

00:46:49: like after Lebanon.

00:46:50: sorry yeah because if their idea is to kick us out Well, you kick people out from Gaza into Egypt.

00:47:00: Egypt is sort of resisting that and so it's not really happening as you want.

00:47:04: well You know?

00:47:05: You can take us out in this direction to the east.

00:47:08: maybe It's possible And do what the settlers doing all over the place Is just.

00:47:14: everybody says I mean with me Obviously a way to try and then Make asleep.

00:47:21: now What does genocide means?

00:47:23: getting rid off her people.

00:47:26: However, you get rid of them.

00:47:27: You know?

00:47:30: that you

00:47:33: can, like the ICJ

00:47:43: ruled

00:47:48: in twenty-twenty four.

00:47:56: That there's a danger that this could be a genocide and they made... There were measures against Israel to prevent it which Israel hasn't fully complied by because there is duty for signing members and the ICJ saying, okay there's a danger of genocide happening.

00:48:30: This means countries who are supporting Israel like my country they oblige to change their politics not sending weapons or helping them on diplomatic level.

00:48:47: so that is why in my opinion words matter.

00:48:55: I understand your opinion, and i understand uh... your reasons for holding the opinion.

00:49:01: As a German like

00:49:02: as a German?

00:49:03: As a human being!

00:49:04: As a person with values you have to understand my perspective.

00:49:10: And My perspective is Palestinian who has gone through A lot of UN and resolutions and positions has had lots of meetings with all kinds of representatives from different pro-Israel and anti-Isreal governments.

00:49:26: And this in that, have heard promises left right and center for many years.

00:49:32: You know I'm totally...and the father is a lawyer who believed in law and I've cousins my sons also..I am totally cynical about everything to do.

00:49:47: that are written everywhere in Europe and America, elsewhere and this country.

00:49:53: I think they're unfortunately tools used to benefit and use according.

00:50:03: governments' interests at different times can be used or not-used.

00:50:09: one shouldn't rely on them which means Not that one should stop talking or asking, or shouting.

00:50:18: But it means nonetheless... ...one should look for one's solutions in ones enemy and with the other.

00:50:27: That is why I think Israelis and Palestinians must actually solve their problem together!

00:50:37: This convention was created after the Holocaust of my forefathers against Jewish people And we were raised as in like, okay never again must the German country.

00:50:52: The German state do this you know?

00:50:55: No genocide ever again no harm of Jewish and Jewish life and so on and so one.

00:51:04: That's why... We must not be hypocritical And we try to, like because the German politician and establishment is very pro-Israel for reasons that everybody can understand.

00:51:20: But they also made sure for decades to hold up international law.

00:51:25: Like there's founding members of the ICJ, of the ICC and all this.

00:51:32: So We want take them by their words And like, okay this must not ever happen again.

00:51:39: So we use their own words against them to not be hypocritical.

00:51:44: Yeah but you know I'm

00:51:45: naive

00:51:48: You're not naive But actually...I mean i think there's a general consensus developed that the so-called international order set up to begin with after First World War And that has now been ruling us so peacefully and nicely, justly for the last ninety-seventy years.

00:52:11: Suddenly it's breaking up!

00:52:13: Now you know... The Second World War is only part of this.

00:52:17: And conventions after the wars are a part of all these.

00:52:24: But everything is actually broken now It's fractured.

00:52:29: All this order.

00:52:30: Now we have to learn a lesson from this and the lesson is that Unfortunately countries states behave or act in accordance with their immediate interests

00:52:45: yeah,

00:52:46: and With hunger for power for expansion four all kinds of things like that.

00:52:53: And so not to expect too much from them One should go continue to struggle within one's own country, one's government or society to abide by human values and rules but I don't think should deceive oneself into thinking that these things will any time soon be the saviour because they're not.

00:53:21: They are going to a long time ahead of us To try and actually establish or re-establish an order of values that people will really stick to in different countries.

00:53:35: And yeah, I mean sorry and use.

00:53:38: you know Jews have had problems not just with Germany.

00:53:40: You know?

00:53:41: I mean Jews have a problem.

00:53:43: they have I Don't know why but they have had the problem throughout their history.

00:53:49: Yeah

00:53:52: And something needs to be done so as too Provide the haven that they've been searching for and it has actually.

00:54:01: And to go back to earlier part of their conversation I think this is something, for instance we Palestinians have to realize because a lot of Palestinians just tell you You know We know what happened with the Jews in Germany but why are we the Palestinians to blame right?

00:54:17: But It Is not enough For us To say That.

00:54:24: steps we have to take towards the solution, toward a kind of mutual understanding between ourselves and Israelis.

00:54:33: We have to make further step for really understanding that injustice is done by us which is the creation.

00:54:40: Israel from Israel's point-of view was viewed as only just thing for them to do create safe havens for themselves.

00:54:52: So we have to get there.

00:54:53: I mean, We Have To Get Over Our Psychological Problems Of Understanding Israel and Israel has to get over some of its problems in understanding us.

00:55:08: i read a quote from you like You Basically Said Like Israelis or?

00:55:15: Israelis Thinking Prioritizes Security over Freedom And Palestinian thinking prioritizes freedom over security for all?

00:55:25: Well, this is the description of how things have going.

00:55:30: I mean the Israelis... For them you have to have their wall and army so on.

00:55:36: as a result of getting all that being happy and satisfied with it they think then we can take next step And make peace with Palestinians.

00:55:47: The Palestinian feel We are under a lot what they call their security, but under the boots.

00:55:54: we want to get rid of the boots.

00:55:55: We want to breathe our lives freely and once you do that then build peace with Israelis.

00:56:01: this is how it will never

00:56:03: work.

00:56:07: Once in the eighties I think You were supportive a one state solution.

00:56:15: once Then you changed your opinion And supported two-state solutions?

00:56:23: I'm supporting any kind of solution.

00:56:27: What's your ideal?

00:56:30: The one that is most rational, can bring peace to all.

00:56:34: now look it started out.

00:56:36: in the very beginning i was in favor of foreign state because this how i grew up.

00:56:42: as a young seventeen eighteen year guy and person You know, I looked at Israel as everybody else that age.

00:56:54: a lot of people this age today.

00:56:56: look at it.

00:56:57: there's a Colonialist you know whatever and imperialists design or project That is wrong.

00:57:06: And so on.

00:57:07: So I thought we have to dismantle the structure of the state and create A State in which all People in It are equal Jews non-Jews Muslims Christians Whatever.

00:57:20: And so in nineteen sixty-seven when Israel took over the West Bank and won In The Army, a lot of Palestinians were unhappy.

00:57:30: I felt happy because Suddenly there was no wall back of the house here Literally...and you know..I could go into what i was brought up to believe as an essential part my country.

00:57:46: And I thought, well the wall now is broken.

00:57:48: We can know really live in one country and so we should work towards that

00:57:52: end.".

00:57:54: Then when i started teaching here... ...I looked around- I saw students.

00:58:00: people didn't want anything to do with Israel.

00:58:03: They wanted it free of occupation.

00:58:08: So what did they want?

00:58:09: They wanted a state!

00:58:11: I will go along with having a state.

00:58:15: It makes maybe sense to have a State next to the State, if Israelis would accept such a State.

00:58:20: and i worked for that.

00:58:22: And then I saw actually that the whole plan doesn't seem realistic and it's falling by the wayside of different reasons until we got us at this point.

00:58:34: In the meantime... ...I said there are different ways in doing things even now.

00:58:39: So on one stage.. ..I suggested for instance Israel.

00:58:43: Just provide everybody in the West Bank, Gaza under occupation with civil rights.

00:58:48: Rights that I have in Jerusalem.

00:58:50: So you know push off one state, push of two states.

00:58:53: let's just begin With a system where people has basic civil rights And down their line it can be decided.

00:59:05: once situation is better People want to go into two States or one State as they like and i still In my mind, you know I'm happy to go in any direction.

00:59:19: And remember like the first time we were here?

00:59:22: Two thousand fourteen and went through the West Bank II talked a Palestinian businessman Sam Bahour.

00:59:27: Yeah, yeah,

00:59:29: and Like he gave me a new idea that I hadn't had before.

00:59:32: I don't know if it still holds but It was basically Palestinian leaders need to drop The idea of state of Palestine Start demanding civil rights, you know turned this entire issue into a Civil Rights movement like bow down to Israel.

00:59:52: be like okay everything is

00:59:55: but he was But he was by civil rights.

00:59:58: He means also political right.

00:59:59: so yes Yes just political

01:00:01: same rights

01:00:02: same rights that I've been doing that since the seventies whatever yeah

01:00:09: But the Palestinian leaders and many people they want still estate.

01:00:14: But he said like but

01:00:16: it's not the same.

01:00:16: It's not quite, you know that its a bit more difficult.

01:00:21: The idea of two states is an intellectual project Created consciously Not popular to begin with among Palestinians.

01:00:35: That had to be drummed into people minds over years For them to start saying Palestinian state next to Israel they didn't But they were not born as two status, the Palestinians.

01:00:49: The first person ever said to states actually had the national movements and somebody To blow up the car that he had or the house that you have.

01:01:00: And it was a long process in the eighties late seventies I mean i remember It of trying to convince people palestinians know let's go for two States.

01:01:10: That's enough for us

01:01:13: like is an naive guy When I was younger, how would this even work?

01:01:20: There's the West Bank, East Jerusalem and then on the other side of Israel there is Gaza.

01:01:27: How can you have a Palestinian state that consists of different territories

01:01:35: where they are not

01:01:35: connected to each

01:01:37: other?

01:01:38: What does connection mean?

01:01:41: It's all kinds of things... You actually have many political examples of states, especially in Eastern Europe now which are not properly connected.

01:01:51: But look a lot stuff was done.

01:01:54: A lot work has been done as involved with some of the work to establish during the eighties and nineties To establish their conception over two-state solution And lots details were worked out between Israelis and Palestinians Not only at negotiating level but also on back rooms with technicians on both sides.

01:02:17: So the idea is not impossible, and it's actually been proven to be doable in theory.

01:02:25: but unfortunately negotiations didn't take us there And we kept slipping, you know, slipping and slipping.

01:02:33: It has become more difficult And this miracle happens.

01:02:40: and you know, there's a place where it is possible that this happens.

01:02:44: I think the two states conception no longer as valid for them on and maybe may be the most valid thing to work forward at the moment some kind of interim situation that will come.

01:03:02: Situation from the next few years

01:03:04: with parts.

01:03:04: what part does DPA play Abbas?

01:03:09: Freaking old there was.

01:03:11: they haven't been any elections lately.

01:03:13: like.

01:03:13: what about the those leaders and their I mean, they're they you know our first day down in state on all this.

01:03:19: Maybe maybe that needs to be a change.

01:03:23: Oh,

01:03:23: I mean remember by who are telling me?

01:03:25: Like alright Abbas needs today Like once one sees dad then we can have a new kind of You know coming in like movement within.

01:03:39: Ah, I don't know.

01:03:43: A lot of people will say this about Netanyahu You need him to die or somehow lose and then things would

01:03:49: happen... I doubt that actually

01:03:51: What.

01:03:51: so do i?

01:03:52: And you shouldn't trust the thought that Abbas might die tomorrow.

01:03:59: soon He's got a long life ahead of him.

01:04:04: Are he friends?

01:04:05: No!

01:04:05: I didn't even interact with them.

01:04:07: He doesn't like me, I've never... We had a fallout on the question of negotiations between Israel and him.

01:04:18: And especially to do with refugees.

01:04:24: It was at that time when we were actually closely associated as going to attend meetings and us talking about refugees.

01:04:32: it's an iron plan for them not go into Israel.

01:04:38: People's voice, along with...

01:04:42: So people were sort of complaining.

01:04:44: and then one day Abu Mazen comes into the meeting.

01:04:46: And he says to Arafat you know I want to add You ask, Arafats asks people do they have anything to their agenda?

01:04:58: And Abu Mazin said well i'd like say what?

01:05:02: Seri's comments.

01:05:04: so Arafad okay adds seris comment.

01:05:07: time comes, our masin starts to begin with giving me a sort of soft talk that I shouldn't be saying what i'm saying or announcing.

01:05:18: And so just as softly I respond and continue and slowly he sort of moves up his tone and in the end he says you know...I am not just conversing or discussing or negotiating enough to do such and such, To stop making the kind of statements that you make.

01:05:44: And I told him...I'm very sorry but i don't work for you!

01:05:49: And I said..i worked with a guy next to me who pointed at Arafat.

01:05:54: That sort really made me angry.

01:05:58: And Arafad didn't pack him up so he associates his mind The sort of fatah fallen, you know I don't know what he called them people with Arafat or a pro-Arafat.

01:06:14: So i've never really had the good relationship before that.

01:06:20: I used to When when they were in Tunis?

01:06:23: I respected him actually so and I was hoping You know as add a lot of hope on him Is it is?

01:06:28: He's a

01:06:33: good leader like Agafa Was your good leader at all Both of them.

01:06:41: You know, he's a good sort of Stalinist leader if you see what I mean.

01:06:45: He is good at machinations Conspiracies gearing things up But he doesn't have the charisma that Arafat had.

01:06:58: He can't get people behind him The way Arafate could have.

01:07:04: People don't actually You know, they don't see him as being part of them.

01:07:11: I think He's not connected Because

01:07:15: he's a stallionist and knows how to get rid off his rivals?

01:07:21: Yes But also that

01:07:22: way you didn't stay close

01:07:25: huh?

01:07:25: I stayed away And uh...and um..I'm happy here where i have no way from it.

01:07:34: I mean, even the Palestinian diaspora in the West or on other parts of the world and Palestinians here.

01:07:45: They want their right to do return whenever there's a solution one state whatever.

01:07:54: but they want the Palestinian Diaspora.

01:07:57: have you know?

01:07:58: The Right To Return just like Jews from all over the World can become an Israeli citizen.

01:08:05: You're against it.

01:08:08: I think the Palestinians have a right to return.

01:08:13: To where?

01:08:14: To Palestine, but the Palestinians also has other rights and one of their other rights is to create a state for themselves in which they can look after themselfs ,in which we build up our future.

01:08:34: And so you've got problem if conflicts with another.

01:08:41: in this particular situation, they do.

01:08:43: They conflict with one other.

01:08:45: so what you do?

01:08:47: Do You just let both rights go or do you know?

01:08:54: take hold of the right that you can bring about and make?

01:08:59: And So I'm in favor off-the-right off creating a state independence freedom for the Palestinians future at The expense Of Another Right i have which is that of return.

01:09:12: Now look, it looks or sounds difficult but its very straightforward.

01:09:17: I have a right to go here and i've got the right there But often these rights are mutually exclusive.

01:09:26: If actually exercise my right to get here... ...I sort-of forgo.. ..the ability of executing my right over there And its understandable.

01:09:36: There's no problem!

01:09:37: We need to understand this and thats something ive tried In the past to explain Because it isn't just enough to tell Palestinians who want to return that I have a right to return.

01:09:49: No, you don't have the right It doesn't make any sense and it is not enough to say forget it And it's in not enough too.

01:09:56: hide anything from them.

01:09:58: Now this is my problem with.

01:10:00: at the time was Abou Mazen under leadership because are saying to them Look we have been negotiating With Israelis knowing fully well that we're not going to be asking, pushing for the right of return.

01:10:15: This is early on in Oslo because a lot of committees were set up.

01:10:21: one was about refugees and I was in a position to know what the discussions where taking place between this side or that side And i knew there wasn't gonna push returning refugees.

01:10:33: So why don't you tell people What are they doing?

01:10:40: It's unpopular

01:10:41: but you have to face it.

01:10:42: if you are a leader You have to convince.

01:10:45: You can't be led, do you?

01:10:46: Have to lead and look.

01:10:48: I'll tell you a story in the time.

01:10:51: it was i think uh It is the previous time I was making those statements whenever it was two thousand two four I can't remember And some people from one of their refugee camps near Bethlehem called me up said sorry we want To have you We want to have a talk with and about your comments or observations, declarations.

01:11:12: So okay so I went to a meeting...I was asked for attend the meeting.

01:11:18: there were about twenty-thirty people or activists at that time all still armed And of course you know I'm terrified scared but as we said earlier it's to be scared is part living normal life.

01:11:37: But I knew that if i didn't go,I would not be able to sleep at night.

01:11:41: So we had a long three hour I think shouting match with me trying to explain things rationally and politically telling people what you wanted What is best for all of us For them.

01:12:00: At the end Two or three of the people who'd invited me, walked up to me and said look sorry.

01:12:08: We want tell you two things.

01:12:10: one thing first thing is we haven't bought a single argument that You gave us tonight?

01:12:18: We don't agree with anything you say.

01:12:21: Second thing I'll tell you it's not only this...we are disgusted!

01:12:25: We feel disgusted when hear you making those declarations.

01:12:30: but The third thing they said in my face, the first thing we want to tell you is nonetheless.

01:12:35: We respect your for telling us exactly what do think and What?

01:12:40: You know people behind you think

01:12:43: And well then needed here

01:12:44: and they need it to hear It and you need to be able to see you need.

01:12:49: this Is a time when leaders have two faces their populations on both sides of course and Tell them Exactly what needs to be done.

01:12:59: We need to do this again some at some point and we will.

01:13:02: you know, we always come back but like two.

01:13:05: quick question at the end.

01:13:09: We talked about your house And before we started like when he told me a little bit of it by her parents because all the pictures here Is it true that?

01:13:18: Your family is has like Centuries of history.

01:13:26: Look, I'm not a historian but my family members some of them claim that we have a long history.

01:13:32: What do they claim?

01:13:34: Well you should read the book My Daughter Wrote called by The Name Of The Woman From Whom We Claimed Descent A Woman Who Lived At The Time Of The Prophet And Fought Alongside Him

01:13:47: Prophet Muhammad.

01:13:48: That's him and So we are supposed to have descended from her coming to Jerusalem at that time.

01:13:58: When they came, the people from there to Jerusalem and who've held offices in Jerusalem different... ...from that time so were suppose be a very old family.

01:14:11: Do you

01:14:11: believe it?

01:14:13: You know..to the extent one likes to hear and like fairy tales and so on.

01:14:19: I'm not a historian, it may be true but...

01:14:22: We talked about the fairytale idea?

01:14:24: Absolutely exactly!

01:14:25: You know i am not sure.

01:14:30: Does that matter to you ?

01:14:32: It doesn't ,I like and encourage my family members to think what they do which is built for tomorrow.

01:14:42: your present Disposed whether it's good or bad.

01:14:48: We didn't get a chance to talk about your philosophy as a philosopher.

01:14:54: How would you describe?

01:14:55: Your philosophy?

01:14:56: because I can imagine You haven't only thought about Palestine and Israel.

01:15:02: and also what kind of Philosophical thinking have you been doing the last forty years?

01:15:10: What school of thought are you part, I

01:15:12: don't have a school of thoughts.

01:15:14: The other day I was in a book launch for one of my books about philosophy.

01:15:23: In Arabic, iIwasin Bethlehem and Tantour actually And you know there... I told the people that One thing is that everyone has a little philosopher inside us And the philosopher is just person who thinks.

01:15:40: So philosophizing thinking.

01:15:43: so don't take up Count or Hegel, I don't know what.

01:15:47: Or what?

01:15:47: Or Schopenhauer... Go Anglo-Saxon or French.

01:15:52: just think!

01:15:53: Think your own questions try to answer your own question and if you are trained do this then be trained as a good philosopher.

01:16:02: Leave it at that.

01:16:03: Thank You so much.

01:16:04: Thanks for watching guys thanks for hearing

01:16:06: This

01:16:07: interview and thanks for supporting our show.

01:16:10: Bye bye.