#841 - Xavier Abu Eid, palästinensischer Politikwissenschaftler

00:00:00: many years ago.

00:00:02: I had in my car one of the most pro-Israeli German politicians, so that time he was a member of parliament and then he left Parliament... And i was asked by a German friend of mine to give this person a tour around settlements in Bethlehem.

00:00:20: not to be very honest with you..I was ignorant about him!

00:00:22: I was told he was pro-israeli but I didn't know how pro Israeli he is.

00:00:26: Can you say his name?

00:00:27: Volker Beck.

00:00:32: And what I remember, it was hilarious.

00:00:36: It was myself driving himself on my side and my friend in the back.

00:00:40: But what i remember is that...it's so clear!

00:00:42: I mean..I took him right outside a settlement.

00:00:45: He saw how this settlement has been built on Palestinian land Right across our Palestinian home What they were doing to their community there.

00:00:52: Not single comment.

00:00:55: I wasn't even challenged.

00:00:56: So is Europe that weak?

00:00:58: No its not.

00:01:00: There was a research, couple of weeks ago saying that twenty percent agricultural products imported by Europe from Israel come from settlements.

00:01:09: I mean imagine if you just blocked this twenty percent what would happen?

00:01:13: So basically... You have very strict rules in Germany to tell me If an egg comes from it's organic or not How they call them the free... Bio.

00:01:27: So then we are very strict.

00:01:28: But when it comes to the Israeli settlement, you are not.

00:01:33: All right!

00:01:34: New episode of Young and Ive.

00:01:37: Have a new guest?

00:01:40: Oh thank-you.

00:01:41: My name is Kavir Abou'id And we're meeting here in the whole city of Bethlehem.

00:01:45: Bethleheme...I've never been.

00:01:47: First time.

00:01:48: Yeah first time.

00:01:49: It's where Christians believe everything has started.

00:01:53: We actually sitting three hundred meters away from the Nativity Church.

00:01:58: Is this story or is like factual?

00:02:01: Well, I believe it's factual but its a matter of faith.

00:02:05: So you're

00:02:06: Christian Palestinian?

00:02:07: Yes

00:02:08: how many Palestinians are Christians and Muslims?

00:02:12: if You talk about Palestinians worldwide Perhaps ten percent that Christians.

00:02:16: But If You Talk About Palestinians in Palestine It's perhaps one percent.

00:02:21: Why so few?

00:02:23: because even though some people don't like to talk about it, the Israeli occupation has made things impossible and particularly in areas where Christians live.

00:02:31: I mean on your way into Bethlehem.

00:02:34: there are twenty-two Israeli settlements around.

00:02:37: we have access only two thirteen percent of the land.

00:02:40: um that even the population registry is controlled by Israel.

00:02:44: so eventually uh...even imports exports whoever comes wherever goes.

00:02:49: it's a problem, so people are very sensitive to what Israel can do here.

00:02:55: Where you born?

00:02:56: Because I see picture of the president of Chile... No

00:03:00: no this is not an official building when we get clear.

00:03:03: This office right?

00:03:04: Now this office?

00:03:04: our friend of mine who is the honorary consul Of Chile but this isn't unofficial building Allright!

00:03:10: I was born in Chile like most people from Bethlehem that were.

00:03:13: actually We had huge community over there.

00:03:19: It's a community that it's very particular.

00:03:22: It started perhaps one hundred years ago, one hundred and twenty years ago.

00:03:25: my family in particular left after the Nakaba or the catastrophe of nineteen forty-eight And many families including mine.

00:03:32: they kept people here there They keep moving back and forth But again for many people is difficult actually most of my family.

00:03:40: they are not allowed to return

00:03:43: because

00:03:43: Because we're Palestinians because Israel controls the population registers.

00:03:47: so according to Shuaidi law If you are a Jew from anywhere in the world, automatically have the right to become an Israeli citizen and for example one of the twenty-two settlements around Bethlehem.

00:03:58: My family deeply rooted in BethlehEM for centuries is not allowed.

00:04:01: come back

00:04:02: Why were YOU allowed?

00:04:04: Well, it's a very long story.

00:04:06: But that was the struggle myself until I recover my ID but when I returned here and I return as an advisor to The Palestinian Negotiation Team And It Was A Moment Where The Peace Process Was Still Working Yet It Took Me Perhaps Twelve Years To Regain My ID.

00:04:27: Twelve Years Yes Twelve Years Wow Yeah Which it was actually very painful.

00:04:34: and still today you find in the occupied West Bank thousands of people that are living here Without a Palestinian ID without an Israeli ID.

00:04:43: We thought a visa.

00:04:44: they're mainly especially I mean, then the most vulnerable group or woman married to Palestinians with Palestinian IDs.

00:04:52: Married here They choose not to leave the country because they want to stay with their children.

00:04:57: and what?

00:04:57: The family

00:04:58: the truck?

00:04:59: They are trapped because if they leave, they will not be allowed to return.

00:05:02: And because they're married to Palestinians for them to gain family reunification is very difficult.

00:05:07: even in the Israeli parliament there's a law that prevents family unification For Palestinian citizens of Israel.

00:05:15: So for example, if a Palestinian from Yaffa or Nazareth citizen of Israel they fall in love with someone from Bethlehem and most probably they would Not Be Allow To Have Family Reunification.

00:05:28: so you grew up in Chile

00:05:30: Yes,

00:05:31: but when for a long while you went to school.

00:05:36: I did my BA that we used to come over summers here and But they did my high-school in my BA there.

00:05:43: And what do you say?

00:05:45: My BA was political science.

00:05:47: Why did you stay political time

00:05:49: to free Palestine.

00:05:54: That was the idea, how realistic this is now after trying for a while I don't know.

00:06:01: Ever regret your decision?

00:06:02: No of course not because it doesn't matter at that price.

00:06:07: you have to pay and then other day its just close.

00:06:11: You are struggling with freedom And that's something I think it is a duty.

00:06:16: The Palestinian National Poet, Mahmoud Darwish has a quote that kept me forever in my mind.

00:06:21: he said as far as Palestinians are deprived of their homeland they ought to be slaves for the homeland.

00:06:30: but once the home land is free then you can choose whatever you want whether or not we stay there and leave To be here, to free this country.

00:06:43: It's not just a political matter.

00:06:45: I mean Here we're talking about our heritage Our history and families And the future of international law in an international system which is what some people don't really get.

00:06:56: Thank you for up.

00:06:57: And now it goes on.

00:07:07: So, you studied political science and then somehow You became an advisor to a negotiation team?

00:07:20: How did that happen?

00:07:21: I was here in a vacation.

00:07:24: Someone called me and said well we heard your are here.

00:07:27: Would do like have an internship with us?

00:07:30: Of course i want too.

00:07:31: What was that?

00:07:32: It was two thousand eight.

00:07:36: They liked my work so they offered me job.

00:07:39: after finish I went back to Chile, finished the

00:07:41: B.A.,

00:07:42: took me another semester and came

00:07:43: back.".

00:07:44: So you had a talent for this stuff?

00:07:47: Sorry?

00:07:48: You have a talent of that stuff?

00:07:49: Either way it's not upto-me to say it!

00:07:51: It should ask people who work with me but let us say...I am very passionate on things they do.

00:07:58: Could you describe what role being an advisor eventually was?

00:08:05: What did you do?

00:08:08: Many things Many things, it was from drafting a press release to briefing diplomats, briefing journalists.

00:08:18: I mean in a way i took my job on how with the tools that i knew to contribute and bring justice here.

00:08:26: That's how i take my job at this time.

00:08:28: Who negotiated with whom?

00:08:30: At that time It's supposed to be still B, but now there is no negotiation of his process.

00:08:35: But it's a PLO on the Palestinian side.

00:08:37: The Palestine Liberation Organization and the government official Now the government officials openly says that they don't want a palestinian state That they do not want equality for everyone.

00:08:47: I mean Netanyahu said a few days ago that he even doesn't want to have Palestinians citizens office running in his government.

00:08:53: So basically you're saying No two Palestinian independence Not we quality under one estate And not too political participation.

00:09:03: So that's, I'm not claiming this is much different than the time i was...I think the Israeli policies at large were same but now it works clearer with statements they make.

00:09:20: Maybe it's more honest situation now.

00:09:22: Of course,

00:09:22: of course!

00:09:23: It's way more honest.

00:09:24: I mean Now you know many people are preparing for elections in Israel Elections that would take place in October and Many People Are hopeful that Netanyahu will live.

00:09:33: And always my question is okay.

00:09:35: So the alternative to Netanyah?

00:09:36: what his position on the Palestinian state?

00:09:39: Are they going into an occupation or not?

00:09:41: No, the answer is no.

00:09:42: I mean eventually what Netanyahu has muttered.

00:09:45: when they believe that what he brings it's honesty right?

00:09:49: They are very open to... ...to what they want and where do you wanna get?

00:09:55: And i think whats more problematic?

00:09:57: in fact its so clear but there isn't actually return.

00:10:00: You know once your foreign minister issued a statement And that he spoke with the Israeli counterpart and was very clear, they cannot build an E-One settlement.

00:10:11: That will split the West Bank into two... ...and it's very clear!

00:10:16: I don't know if there are days after the Israelis announced that they were doing biddings for the E-one settlement?

00:10:23: Right?!

00:10:24: So.... And then what happens?

00:10:27: It just works!

00:10:32: When the Gaza Genocide started I was being interviewed and i said, you know the world will have two options here.

00:10:42: so You either protect the rules based international system And you intervene against whoever is to blame.

00:10:50: I mean it's this not about being pro-israel pro-palestine or anything Or... ...you destroy these International Rules Based System by granting impunity for those crimes?

00:11:02: Then almost three years later You know, over seventy thousand people killed.

00:11:06: Seventy percent of Gaza destroyed and they continue building settlements in the annexation of Poland And everything is there!

00:11:13: It's so clear.

00:11:15: So what else it needed for action to take place?

00:11:19: What do you think?

00:11:21: I don't want lose hope.

00:11:22: that's a problem Right?

00:11:24: My family tells me by the way... What did get out your negotiations?

00:11:30: What did got out international law?

00:11:31: What do you

00:11:33: say?

00:11:34: I fully understand.

00:11:35: Well, my answer is that it's going to be a long path and we need to build alongside the path.

00:11:42: I am personally someone who doesn't believe in our struggle.

00:11:45: for example why not?

00:11:48: because We don't have the right to mean it's enshrined international law.

00:11:53: but You're

00:11:53: allowed to resist occupiers

00:11:55: Of course!

00:11:56: We are allow to resist occupation of course.

00:11:59: there are legitimate targets here then But When you're in a situation when you are condemned to be the neighbor of the other side, eventually.

00:12:12: that's what these stories aren't thinking by the way.

00:12:13: You may want to think on how to build a future relationship and this is precisely what Netanyahu would have been like Veer or Smotridge but even Lapid and others they don't think about it.

00:12:24: I mean if we start from the principle where all human beings entitled for same rights And you keep believing, oh okay but Palestinians know what they say about Gaza.

00:12:35: No no there's not blockating Gaza we're allowing enough calories for them to survive.

00:12:40: I mean can imagine how racist that they have made just for dehumanizing Palestinians.

00:12:47: so eventually uh i don't really have an answer for people who tell me What is your international law for or what this?

00:12:56: And any sort of international pressure, but like what I know Is that over the past three years International public opinion has significantly changed.

00:13:04: Well, I know it's a today being pro Israeli which means at this stage being preoccupation and It actually a liability in international politics That many things are changing including in their own country Which just he would change Again, perhaps not in the elites but yes industries.

00:13:24: It's quite amazing like our political class is very much still you know on Israel side But the population like seventy five percent are Against this kind of allyship.

00:13:36: Like that our ally ship with Israelis almost as unpopular As You know.

00:13:43: being an ally with Russia has almost as popular as being a lot with Israel or the US.

00:13:48: You know, I remember many years ago.

00:13:54: In my car one of the most pro-Israeli German politicians at that time.

00:13:59: he was a member of parliament and then he left Parliament... And i was asked by a german friend of mine to give this person a tour around settlements in Bethlehem.

00:14:10: not be very honest with you.. ..I was ignorant about him!

00:14:13: ...I was told he is pro-israeli but didn't know how pro-istralian he was!

00:14:17: Volker Beck?

00:14:18: Right?

00:14:19: Oh!

00:14:23: And what I remember, it was hilarious.

00:14:27: It was myself driving himself on my side and my friend in the back.

00:14:31: Actually i saw my friends from Germany a few days ago... ...and you don't even know when this happened to them.

00:14:36: Of course I remember.

00:14:38: But What I remember is that..it's so clear right outside the settlement.

00:14:44: And he saw how this settlement was being built on Palestinian land, right across a Palestinian home what they were doing to their community.

00:14:50: that not single comment.

00:14:54: I wasn't even challenged!

00:14:56: Either no if it's because some people when they see so...the evidence in front of them is clear That perhaps They just go blind?

00:15:07: They don't want to see or perhaps they know and care Which also may be the case.

00:15:12: I mean, he's

00:15:15: very famous now for being you know The head of one of the largest lobby groups For Israel, the German Israeli society.

00:15:23: He is the head Of a group that calls for impunity for genocide Impunity for war crimes.

00:15:29: Let us say it clearly once again i do believe That there was moment When people called themselves pro-Israeli Because sincerely they believed In the idea of Israel being here, you can ask me later on what I think about it.

00:15:44: But in the context of a peace process to state israel and Palestine?

00:15:50: I believe some people were like this perhaps twenty thirty years ago peaceful

00:15:54: coexistence

00:15:55: Peaceful coexistence.

00:15:56: today being pro-israeli It's just being pro occupation Pro war crimes against Palestinian self determination pro racism.

00:16:07: You have sixty-five laws in the Israeli parliament that only discriminate against Palestinian citizens, not me!

00:16:13: Not Palestinians in occupied territory.

00:16:15: Palestinian citizens of Israel.

00:16:17: And yet you know... The Bundestag still see people saying well we share values for democracy and human rights.

00:16:24: It's

00:16:25: a very strange democracy right?

00:16:30: But again things are so clear.

00:16:33: You ask about where I was born actually And remember, I met the judge that prosecuted Pinochet.

00:16:41: The dictator in Chile.

00:16:42: he came here and not in Chile.

00:16:47: Judge Guzman was his family name.

00:16:50: He was invited by Beth Salem which is an Israeli human rights organization.

00:17:01: It's true you don't have justice now but it's very important to document everything Because once there is justice, everything will be that which is what happened in Chile.

00:17:15: Now they had seventeen years of dictatorship and then a few other years where impunity was granted.

00:17:21: but once there was a chance Everything came out.

00:17:25: And when it comes to here It's not just.

00:17:28: you know You have some isolated Palestinian NGO looking for Israeli war crimes.

00:17:33: You have Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch the United Nations including their independent experts.

00:17:40: there is a consensus in the human rights community about what Israelis do it.

00:17:44: so Germany may cite an Amnest international report to claim that in Venezuela There's no democracy.

00:17:51: but when amnesty international says that Israel is committing the crime of apartheid then you condemn.

00:17:55: I'm not international.

00:17:58: That's where we have reached.

00:18:02: One more question regarding armed struggle, are you in a minority here with regards to being against the armed struggle?

00:18:10: No no...I don't think it is about being a minority or majority.

00:18:14: It's about being able provide a viable path for national liberation.

00:18:20: I think that's where we are.

00:18:22: So, eventually...I'm not from those who say they don't have the right of course you do and their international law is a right but eventually what you need to set a viable path for the future.

00:18:34: now What's your problem?

00:18:36: And this is the biggest question people like me face.

00:18:41: We went through International Court Of Justice We went into International Criminal Court We went to The Security Council We went to the UNGA.

00:18:50: Civil Society called for BDS, Boycott the Investment and Sanctions.

00:18:55: And what did we get out of this?

00:18:57: Right I mean we have for example Benjamin Netanyahu is a fugitive of international justice Of the ACC.

00:19:05: Well your politicians make pilgrimage To come see him here Because they don't want travel with Him going into Germany.

00:19:11: So They Come Here.

00:19:12: Is it policy that The German Foreign Minister or the German Chancellor would would talk with someone who's a fugitive of international justice.

00:19:24: And then, you know they come out and say well we made clear our position but we don't think it is time to impose sanctions really?

00:19:31: So when the time... so eventually I am struggling.

00:19:35: believe that what people like me thinking have advocated for uh..is right path.

00:19:42: But people those politicians in Germany keep making more difficult for this to succeed.

00:19:50: Then again, like Germany is in a special situation now or an minority situation in Europe.

00:19:57: I mean things are changing at least on the symbolic level.

00:20:01: Like France has recognized the state of Palestine Portugal A lot more European countries and it's only Italy now And Germany from bigger countries left.

00:20:15: Does that actually matter?

00:20:19: recognizing the state of Palestine, because there has not been a material change.

00:20:26: I would say that recognition is an important step but very basic one.

00:20:32: let's put it this way you cannot just say oh yeah support Palestinians they recognize and thats it.

00:20:37: no no right?

00:20:38: Recognition its a very basic element.

00:20:41: It's at the basis of everything.

00:20:43: You really believe in a political process, In the future between Israelis and Palestinians?

00:20:47: Fine!

00:20:48: The least you can do is to recognize as state-of-Palestine But it equally or even more important for them To take concrete measures on Israeli settlements.

00:20:57: On Israeli settlers.

00:20:58: I mean How Is this?

00:21:02: That Israeli Settlements are being funded from Germany.

00:21:09: European Court of Justice comes out with a ruling saying you have to label.

00:21:14: I'm not even banned, no?

00:21:15: Label settlement products and in Germany You don't want to label them.

00:21:21: I understand there is they.

00:21:24: They want to compare this with the antisemitic persecutions.

00:21:28: i understand But but it's on the case.

00:21:32: I mean, someone should come out and say listen this is not the case.

00:21:34: And by the way many Jewish activists say it's not a case.

00:21:38: Many Jewish activists call on Germany Not even to label but to ban those settlement products.

00:21:43: now once again If we want to get out of all these discussion It's much better just be clear and saying well what do you want?

00:21:52: Do We want that two-state solution?

00:21:55: then To have a true state solution we need to end occupation.

00:21:58: What do we Need to do to end Occupation?

00:22:02: Let's take This On The Side.

00:22:04: You don't want to take what's needed to end the occupation.

00:22:07: fine.

00:22:08: Let all live with equal rights under one single state.

00:22:11: I'm not against that.

00:22:13: you know, again this is a one-state with the same rights for everyone?

00:22:16: Of course not!

00:22:17: Why not?

00:22:19: Because it's only moral alternative towards two states solution With two sovereign democratic States.

00:22:27: But so far What Israel is trying to build Is One apartheid reality or one estate and two systems, you know even the Israeli quote-unquote progressives.

00:22:39: You know there is a party called the Democrats in Israel.

00:22:43: They're running for their actions.

00:22:45: they are not willing to say palestinian state on their platform.

00:22:48: There are no willing to second occupying.

00:22:49: they say separation And I told one of their advisors once we met said but he realized that separation without sovereignty is apartheid, right?

00:23:03: I mean you're basically separating from this virus myself.

00:23:06: You know your sterilizing yourself for me but they still don't have rights and all these will come in the future.

00:23:16: how long should i wait to have a decent life ?

00:23:19: To have an airport ,to have the right to go outside of country whenever we want and come back.

00:23:25: .To be able plan our lives ,to be able to have agriculture that we want?

00:23:29: Think about this, we are bankrupt in Palestine.

00:23:31: There is an economic crisis all over the place I think.

00:23:35: ten years ago there was a report by The World Bank saying that if Palestinians had access to Area C which is over sixty-one percent of West Bank only for agricultural purposes not even housing We would make two thousand million dollars per year.

00:23:52: That's more than EU support then UN or anything.

00:23:57: Could Palestine be a self-sustaining country?

00:24:00: Of course.

00:24:02: So eventually, it would be much cheaper for countries like Germany to support once and for all any occupation than to keep sustaining this system with projects that don't have money or stuff we need.

00:24:18: I'm not saying stop giving but just prolonging the situation.

00:24:24: where are

00:24:24: The picture, the recognition like the German political establishment.

00:24:28: Let's be honest.

00:24:29: they're saying okay we will recognize Palestine once there is you know negotiated two-state solution.

00:24:40: I would say what they mean?

00:24:41: Is that they were recognized?

00:24:42: Palestine with Likut recognizes Palestine and that That's not a thing many german politicians believe.

00:24:48: but BB

00:24:49: spark?

00:24:50: yeah Yeah because some German politicians have this thing in their mind that whatever Israel defines as the security interests, they are going to endorse.

00:25:08: I remember when the genocide started.

00:25:12: my friends at Fatah Youth got a letter from Jouzus, the youth of the SPD telling them Relations with them because they didn't condemn October.

00:25:25: the seventh

00:25:27: Faptana is like part of this social democratic party system.

00:25:29: Yeah, just for audience

00:25:33: and I remember My friends in fatah youth They responded to letter saying no we are totally against suspending We're canceling relations with you Because whenever we've asked over your solidarity and your support You're not supporting And you're just trying to equate between occupy or unoccupied.

00:25:51: why?

00:25:51: I don't know if there are progressives in theory Right?

00:25:55: That's what they claim.

00:25:58: And a friend of mine actually in the letter wrote to them that when it comes to Palestine you are no more progressive than Viktor Orban, so I found this answer fantastic!

00:26:15: We don't have partners.

00:26:17: And again, it's fascinating how you hear more and more voices but you have establishment in a political elite that is very well rooted In this idea.

00:26:28: whatever Israel defines as the national interest we should support I think they are contributing to bringing peace here.

00:26:37: You've mentioned the genocide of Gaza A few times.

00:26:43: The war started after October seventh.

00:26:45: How did you experience the day on October seven?

00:26:50: Did do, did you realize that this really government will take revenge and there's going to be an invasion.

00:26:58: That it's gonna be worse than campaigns before?

00:27:02: Yeah I remember October the seventh very well because

00:27:07: of your against Armstrong.

00:27:11: Yeah, there is a difference between being against armed struggle and not understanding armed struggle.

00:27:17: I'm Not someone who's naive And i'm not a pacifist just to be very clear.

00:27:23: But of course i am attacks against civilians wherever they are and i think as palestinians We should have a very clear position on this because we have been over where being affected daily basis on attacks against Civilians.

00:27:36: so it's only about October the seventh.

00:27:37: but When I was looking at the images in the morning, and The first thing that came to my mind is how many people will be killed?

00:27:47: And But they never thought it was going to be over seventy thousand people.

00:27:53: To be honest by the end of October the seventh when there were figures that a thousand two hundred Israelis were killed I said, we'll reach perhaps twelve thousand Palestinians because that's a range somehow.

00:28:06: You know if you kill one Israeli it's a thousand Palestinians.

00:28:09: so... So i thought were going to reach there and unfortunately every week from the first three or four weeks.. ..I was right.

00:28:17: with every figure People would ask me what do think will happen?

00:28:22: And I'd say well a thousand people will be killed out.

00:28:24: A thousand people are killed Because You know what's the most problematic is that you don't do.

00:28:30: they need to be an expert?

00:28:32: It was so clear.

00:28:34: That's why when, you know When?

00:28:35: who still have underlay and no one others came inside?

00:28:38: now Israel has a right to defend itself.

00:28:40: I mean your giving real life to a genocide.

00:28:42: I mean there is a difference between condemning attacks against civilians And going in giving just a card plan for Israel to do whatever They want.

00:28:50: So could this genocide had been stopped from the very beginning?

00:28:53: of course it was not and and i think We have a long memory and humanity will have a memory.

00:29:02: I mean, we remember those figures that enabled the genocide from Joe Biden, Nancy Blinken in the U S to several other politicians.

00:29:11: In Germany you had for minister who justified attacking hospitals?

00:29:18: That's something really doesn't come into my mind.

00:29:21: be as pro-Israelis want.

00:29:23: But really, like are you willing to destroy the Forty-Niva Convention for the sake of shielding Israel?

00:29:29: I mean there's no justification for genocide and Israeli action.

00:29:34: but couldn't Hamas in other militant groups who were responsible for the massacre or not?

00:29:45: could they have foreseen this This revenge by Israel, like eventually in hindsight that they do disservice to the Palestinian people.

00:30:02: I think October the seventh went way beyond what they expected.

00:30:09: They were more

00:30:09: successful and someway than they expect

00:30:12: it?

00:30:12: I don't know if either even if the world is successful or not but i think It went way Beyond what they want.

00:30:18: And I'm telling you this also, there are things that we hear here.

00:30:23: and then just trying to do analysis...I don't think they expected.

00:30:29: it was going to be easy for them!

00:30:33: There were moments where in the morning if i am not mistaken a number of people deployed at one thousand two hundred.

00:30:43: they could have deployed much more but I didn't expect.

00:30:47: You know, the things were going to go that way.

00:30:50: And I do believe that anyone at launch an operation like this regardless on whether it went away they expected or not should have realized what an Israeli response could be.

00:31:09: throughout many years of Palestinian revolution there was several operations where we're not conducted because leaders would understand what the response will be on Palestinian civilians.

00:31:21: And I'm talking particularly when the PLO was in Lebanon, for example.

00:31:24: there were several operations that were cancelled Because you know assessment this is going to provoke more harm and...and i do believe people in Gaza.

00:31:35: it's not something we can believe service saying what they are saying openly.

00:31:40: They'd love to have some Hamas people accountable for what happened.

00:31:46: But let's also remember, and that is one of the lost opportunities I think we had when international criminal court issued their arrest warrant against Netanyahu And his defense minister.

00:31:59: he also did.

00:32:00: they also did it against Hamas people.

00:32:02: instead of trying to shield Netanyah Here is Tyler, here comes

00:32:34: the verb for us ourselves.

00:32:44: Let's go to today, the situation in Gaza.

00:32:47: Today who should rule Gaza?

00:32:51: Like if you could have a choice like what would be ideal scenario of Israel plays along and international community pressures Israel will go along.

00:33:04: Who should rule Gaza?

00:33:05: Hamas?

00:33:07: No I don't think Hamas But I think that no ruler should be in Gaza.

00:33:12: That doesn't have first of all Palestinian legitimacy and second a mandate from the UN now what we had.

00:33:18: when we are facing now in gas, it's very difficult because They're setting precedents that are complicated not just for Palestine.

00:33:25: I mean this board of peace that Trump created.

00:33:29: This is an attempt to have an alternative to the U.N.. I mean Is it positive?

00:33:33: No Of course It's Not Now.

00:33:37: They are now saying, OK so if Hamas demilitarizes we're going to allow for more humanitarian aid.

00:33:43: So they are basically contributing to setting two million people in Gaza or one point eight million.

00:33:48: I don't know how many people are left now uh in Gaza a hijack to political reality that they aren't part of and most Children, they voted for Hamas in the two thousand and six elections.

00:34:03: Many of them were not even born when those selections took place.

00:34:06: I believe we do have a big problem with regards to our internal system as Palestinians And that's an end.

00:34:13: That's a fact.

00:34:14: Um, and i think the genocide in Gaza should be a call For those politicians too To do what's needed in order to unite?

00:34:21: And I do believe that it has to be the Palestinian national institutions that will take control of Gaza, not the board of peace and certainly not Israel.

00:34:32: Let's look into The West Bank eats Jerusalem.

00:34:37: talk about the PLO?

00:34:39: do they have legitimacy these days?

00:34:42: I mean there hasn't been an election for many years.

00:34:45: like is this a democratic system?

00:34:51: I don't think that people could argue this is a perfect democracy at all, right?

00:34:55: Sometimes you hear slogans in the street.

00:34:57: Did you believe oh wow we are living on democracy.

00:34:59: no where not it's...I do believe though our political culture still very democratic and i do believe have institutions or system.

00:35:10: but if had regular elections It wouldn't be difficult to make it work.

00:35:15: let us put it this way.

00:35:18: But the PLO as an institution It's not a question, for many reasons.

00:35:22: And I think the most important is that it's a guardian of Palestinian rights and one that represents Palestinian rights in United Nations For example.

00:35:30: So you may have many questions about those who are ruling the PLO today but don't want to delegitimize the PLo as an institution.

00:35:39: Let us put them this way Now we do need elections.

00:35:43: They claim they will have elections later This year...I hope That would be the case.

00:35:48: They decide if they're our election.

00:35:50: But

00:35:52: but but in fairness, I mean, I'm not part of the political establishment today and that but in furnace decision to have elections is first of all a Palestinian demand.

00:36:02: And finally you know we have.

00:36:04: We have a response saying were gonna have elections in November right?

00:36:09: i do believe though That If anyone outside is interested on elections They should now be putting pressure on Israel Not only Palestinians because In order to have elections, we need candidates.

00:36:20: To be able to move between cities Israel usually makes use of the election's two arrest candidates for example really?

00:36:28: Of course there was an agreement signed by Israel that would allow for elections in occupied is Jerusalem take place.

00:36:33: last time they said I were not going to allow them too happen.

00:36:36: They should allow for a lecture today placing this Jerusalem and They should allow for candidates, especially if we have a presidential election to be able to move between the West Bank and Gaza.

00:36:46: For example... I mean those are things that it's not like.

00:36:50: they're asking something new.

00:36:51: Those are obligations Israel signed on!

00:36:55: throughout the years.

00:36:56: Now Israel could just perfectly come out and say, listen guys I want to end the Oslo Accords And that's it!

00:37:04: Then let the world deal with them in a way they prefer.

00:37:06: But as far as they are not saying this They're binding for those agreements you have signed.

00:37:11: So if i were In part of international community That quote unquote believes in democracy and wants everyone To vote fine but go put pressure on them so We can have the democratic election we need.

00:37:25: Could you explain like what kind of political movements are here?

00:37:30: Like there's Fatah, right and Abbas is basically in the bus.

00:37:35: Is there Hamas or other more progressive parties groups?

00:37:42: I think that Palestinian political system is a deep crisis And I don't want to be an expert on this.

00:37:50: Of course, Fateh remains the most important political party for many reasons.

00:37:55: But I also believe that when you look at surveys this is a moment where Palestinians are at large.

00:38:02: they don't feel identified with any political party not Fateh or Hamas.

00:38:07: The left has been going through very similar process to left wing parties elsewhere where they still are trying to find their new identity, you know, thirty years after the end of Cold War.

00:38:23: And this is a problem that left-wing parties have faced in many places now.

00:38:28: You may find for example A society in Palestine That can be socially conservative But it's very liberal politically And that combination sometimes allows for alternatives, particularly left-wing alternatives.

00:38:46: But I think the most important question those parties should be asking in movement is what will be their plan to end occupation?

00:38:54: That's at the core of things and they just had a conference which left way more questions than answers.

00:39:06: For the way it was conducted, I mean... To be honest.

00:39:15: I follow politics and like politics!

00:39:18: I wasn't very excited about those elections.

00:39:21: I think that we have...

00:39:22: Internal election?

00:39:23: I think we had municipal elections in Ramallah And those elections were going to inaugurate what they referred as a year of democracy.

00:39:34: Well i couldn´t vote at Ramallah.

00:39:35: There was only one list.

00:39:40: Yeah, Only One List!

00:39:42: So...

00:39:44: Who decided the list?

00:39:46: Fateh decided that list.

00:39:48: but I asked people and went to ask politicians even from their position like why didn't you present yourselves?

00:39:55: there's more than what answer.

00:40:02: so elections were for example municipal elections where less competitive This year than they were four years ago.

00:40:07: now

00:40:09: Reminds me like I was born in East Germany, you know before the wall fell kind of sounds like that Everything.

00:40:17: basically it wasn't seen as set before the actual election.

00:40:25: I I would want to believe it's not like that.

00:40:27: Mm-hmm.

00:40:28: But but I also think that we are in the context we have here In the context of occupation, we have set a lot of rules that I was invited to give a lecture in university here.

00:40:47: And one thing professor told me all time is it's first lecture they had after war between Israel and Iran where they could not make it universities.

00:41:01: They were having online classes And he told me how terrified the students were to express their opinions online.

00:41:11: So, we just spent one month where I couldn't teach because if you have a class of international relations or a class on political theory... You need people to be able to present their positions and exchange ideas.

00:41:29: Our students are scared of talking online.

00:41:34: We have hundreds of students that are detained in Israeli jails with no charges against them.

00:41:40: You know, yeah this morning before you came I was having breakfasts with my family and they told me about the daughter of our neighbors A very nice girl twenty years old journalism student a member of our national football team Detained by Israelis.

00:41:59: They just gave her administrative detention meaning There are no charges against her, but she will stay for six months in an Israeli jail.

00:42:06: So people or especially young people they're scared In many cases and those who are not or those were courageous enough to come out and present their ideas They can be faced with realities like the one of my neighbor.

00:42:22: Do

00:42:23: you want questions?

00:42:25: How big is it called a corruption problem within the PLO?

00:42:30: I hear when You know, there's a Palestinian diaspora in Europe and especially in Germany.

00:42:35: And if they talk about their own leaders corruption always comes up?

00:42:40: It is a problem.

00:42:42: no one can deny it's a problem.

00:42:46: I think sometimes the issue of corruption...

00:42:51: How does this work?

00:42:53: There are different ways of corruption that can be nebulous as corruption for example.

00:43:02: Now corruption is not something I like to talk about, Not because it doesn't exist.

00:43:06: It certainly does and its a big problem but Its being used as tool To deviate from the issue of occupation Which is i think The main aspect.

00:43:20: No

00:43:20: no Of course!

00:43:21: Im not talking About yourself Im just saying in general Like the issue reforms for example.

00:43:29: They are saying now we need that reform PA.

00:43:31: So the question is, who's asking for reforms?

00:43:35: Did anyone ask Palestinian people which reforms we want?

00:43:40: or I have some expert from Germany coming to tell me listen.

00:43:44: You should not say in your educational curriculum that Haifa was part of Palestine because that insights violence really like that inside violence.

00:43:53: but the checkpoint outside my home doesn't right or the Israelis entering my neighborhood every night, no it doesn't.

00:44:00: It does inside.

00:44:00: but you know that if we quote history and would say before Forty-Eight Haifa was part of Palestine And Palestinians were expelled in nineteen forty eight through the Nakuba.

00:44:10: That incites violence.

00:44:11: Now again there is a huge crisis.

00:44:14: Why?

00:44:15: Because on one side We do have our internal problems Of course.

00:44:22: I mean, there's a reason why i'm no longer part of the system.

00:44:26: Right?

00:44:26: Uh...I made that decision to continue but-but they said difference between this on one side and then the lack of leadership in general To say we're gonna end occupation.

00:44:40: uh We want to hold israel accountable.

00:44:43: Since they are failing to do that They focus on reforms And they focused on corruption and they focus on.

00:44:49: I mean my main problem is still the occupation And I think that's why we want to focus.

00:44:54: That's my message.

00:44:56: usually when, you know... When I meet with German officials and they talk to me about such matters it says if your not really willing to tackle the real issues stay on the side because the role of Germany If you ask other Palestinians will tell you its positive.

00:45:12: Why?

00:45:12: Because their paying So there are projects being funded and helps economy.

00:45:18: Thats way

00:45:19: up but always Corruption cups that like, oh what is being done with our money?

00:45:24: We want to help the Palestinians and don't wanna know.

00:45:27: But I think they Germans are Europeans in general do have systems but allow them see where their money's spent.

00:45:34: mean i'm not putting it on that side.

00:45:38: What would say?

00:45:39: some people may claim that Germany doing fine or EUs because they're contributing financially And but then Germany prevents any sort of collective, a collective action within the European Union.

00:45:54: Now Israel is Israel's main trade partner to Europe that week?

00:46:01: No it's not.

00:46:03: there was research couple of weeks ago saying that twenty percent agricultural products are imported by you from Israel.

00:46:11: come from settlements.

00:46:12: and imagine if he just blocked this twenty percent what would happen?

00:46:16: so basically You have very strict rules in Germany to tell me if an egg comes from it's organic or not.

00:46:25: How they call that the free bio, so then you're very strict.

00:46:31: but when he comes on Israeli settlement your note right?

00:46:35: So I think those are part of the points at people should be looking If They truly believe On a political solution.

00:46:43: final question What about the role of women in politics like?

00:46:48: I don't know any.

00:46:50: I mean it could be ignorant, but I don' t know any leading Palestinian and like female politician Like all the seemingly ministers or whatever you recall that below there seemed to be woman.

00:47:04: But what's going on?

00:47:06: No II think woman.

00:47:09: In society they have more vote.

00:47:13: a very.

00:47:18: I think the way women stand today in Palestinian society is much more advanced than it used to be.

00:47:24: And i'm not saying...I don't like their perspective of saying, oh woman are oppressed and discriminated left on the side.

00:47:33: whoever says that they dont know Palestinian society.

00:47:36: our universities almost all universities have over fifty percent students being women.

00:47:42: So for example, access to education remains important.

00:47:45: Now it's true now many parents they don't want to send especially the daughters to universities.

00:47:50: but why?

00:47:50: Not because I do not want them be educated But Because They Are Afraid of Settlers Attacking Them On The Way.

00:47:56: And That Is Also A Reality We Have!

00:47:58: Because Israel is now putting There Is a New Law In Israeli Parliament Not To Allow People From Palestinian Universities Palestinian Degrees from Working in Israel.

00:48:08: So what happens with Palestinians in East Jerusalem, for example?

00:48:12: That is part of the occupied territory but it's under Israeli control.

00:48:16: Again so we have those issues now.

00:48:18: I think many people miss The role of having like a strong big figure woman figure in Palestinian politics.

00:48:27: We had dr Hanan Ashraoui for many years and tried to

00:48:31: talk to her.

00:48:31: she was unfortunately And

00:48:35: she's, uh... She is amazing.

00:48:36: Yeah!

00:48:37: She's just someone I many of us admire and i think many women admires her.

00:48:41: but they want to follow their steps But I would really invite you go the grass roots where we have many woman that are leading there ...and I'm certain once we regain our electoral process You're going see more and more women than will appear Today.

00:48:59: it not only about women leadership what about youth leadership?

00:49:04: So we have a big problem in this political system that hopefully if elections are conducted you're going to see a few new names.

00:49:13: Sorry, thanks so much for your time!

00:49:15: This was fun and interesting And let's do it again at some point of the future.

00:49:21: I'm sure the occupation won't go away this fast.

00:49:27: Well unfortunately cannot deny what you were saying but yeah i would love to talk with Bye.