#830 - Kimberlé Crenshaw (Critical Race Theory)

00:00:00: All right, new episode of Young and Eve.

00:00:01: I have a new guest.

00:00:02: who are you?

00:00:03: I'm Kimberly Crenshaw.

00:00:05: Kimberley what do you do?

00:00:06: ?I am law professor.

00:00:07: i teach at two universities Columbia University And the university of California Los Angeles ,and also run an organization called The African-American Policy Forum.

00:00:20: Why did he do that?

00:00:23: why

00:00:23: do all these things or why Do each one?

00:00:26: well let's start with all of it.

00:00:28: Well,

00:00:29: I do all of them because as a law professor and as a writer in the law much of my work is only consumed by other lawyers.

00:00:39: Other academics.

00:00:41: And My objectives...my goals..My motivation Is to reach wider audiences Providing frameworks that they might be able To use to understand their lives better to Understand social justice better to understand what we need to do in order to make our promises better.

00:01:04: So my audience is not just other lawyers, it's people uh...in my country and sometimes I have readers around the world.

00:01:16: I guess so otherwise you wouldn't be in Europe right?

00:01:18: I think so yeah!

00:01:20: How did how did you deal with the German rail system today?

00:01:26: Well, it is the reason why we're just starting and I was like surprised.

00:01:30: I thought things ran on time here but yeah my apologies

00:01:35: Germany isn't what it used to be.

00:01:38: That's a good thing in some ways.

00:01:40: Some ways Like... We can talk about privatization at some other times.

00:01:46: So what kind of promises were you talking about?

00:01:49: well i'm a child of the civil rights movement mm-hmm.

00:01:56: Before people like me in the United States actually had full legal rights.

00:02:02: I was born during a time before it Was illegal to discriminate against People Like Me But iIwas also Born To Parents Who considered themselves racemen and women of the twentieth century, which meant they were fully aware of these obstacles.

00:02:20: They are fully aware that we still lived in the shadow of enslavement.

00:02:26: That all things I might want to do...I may not be able to do unless laws changed or collective action successful, so the promises that I guess underwrote.

00:02:45: The race men and women of the twentieth century were the promises of equality or inclusion of democracy.

00:02:53: have you know?

00:02:55: You don't-you aren't limited by who you are though those where the promise is Those we're not realities but those with a promises

00:03:03: for any of these promises kept.

00:03:04: um I mean, let me put it this way.

00:03:12: What we learned is that promises are made real not just by waiting for somebody to come and give them to you Not Just By Waiting For The Law To Automatically Open Up The Doors To Equality And Inclusion.

00:03:26: Not By Some Magic.

00:03:29: Equality Comes About To The Extents It Does by people demanding it, by people being prepared to walk through the doors that they have tried to blow open.

00:03:40: By being ever vigilant about the backsliding that sometimes happens once initial reform happens.

00:03:51: so my upbringing the generation that I was in, we had sort of a common sensibility.

00:04:01: That were moving forward but not on some kind of conveyor belt.

00:04:05: it's step by step that we take in order to push away some of the limitations.

00:04:10: And, some those are simply material.

00:04:13: like you couldn't go this place or enroll into school and pursue a profession... Those were real materials barriers that were policy-based.

00:04:23: they just said You don't apply here!

00:04:26: You can't work here!

00:04:27: And others are ideological.

00:04:29: Others are barriers that have to do with what is this institution for?

00:04:34: What are the values of it?

00:04:36: who Is served by and who's not?

00:04:39: so when?

00:04:41: When you ask why I do, but I do one of the reasons.

00:04:44: I'd do what I Do is I try to take some of the lessons that i've learned being a lawyer Being A law professor Some Of The myths That Many People Have About Law And I Try To you know, sort of pull the rabbit out or at least show where the rabbit is always hiding.

00:05:04: So it's dispelling the myths that hold people back and make it seem like we live in as only world its possible.

00:05:12: But living to west these are liberal democracies everybody equal before law.

00:05:20: what do talk about?

00:05:21: What kind?

00:05:25: A year ago, I would have answered that probably a little differently because the idea Just, I think within the last couple of months.

00:05:39: The United States has finally been declassified as a liberal democracy for A lot of reasons.

00:05:46: that should be alarming to any people who really believe in Liberal Democracy and thought they lived in one.

00:05:55: But here's what i will say Liberal democracy, democracies themselves are their aspirational.

00:06:04: They are benchmarks.

00:06:06: they provide a sort of formal ways of thinking about democracy.

00:06:11: and beyond that there are the ways that democracy supposedly work in order to ensure participation, ensure protection against tyranny.

00:06:24: Ensure against the dissent into authoritarianism.

00:06:29: that's what it looks like on paper but...

00:06:32: Like at the front end?

00:06:34: That

00:06:34: is a front-end!

00:06:36: But

00:06:37: there has always been back in and part of my story about how African Americans have experienced this so-called democracy.

00:06:52: What wisdom might come from centering those experiences as we think about what is working in our democracy and what isn't?

00:07:02: And I would say, in this moment even more importantly, centering that history in the conversations now about why and how our democracy is unraveling.

00:07:13: What is it that the African American experience brings to the understanding of this moment?

00:07:19: Why is it as Langston Hughes, a famous black poet during The Harlem Renaissance said you don't have to tell the Negro about fascism.

00:07:31: We know it.

00:07:32: That's what we have lived in the United States.

00:07:35: Tell her white guy about fascismo.

00:07:37: Well so I'll tell you Langston Hughes was talking about.

00:07:41: Langston Hues, was talking the reality that for African Americans from end of reconstruction to frankly middle-of-the-twentieth century we lived in a state of racial tyranny by that meaning We had very little political power no ability really determine conditions our lives But equally importantly, the position that we were cabined in and pushed not only by political power but culture.

00:08:19: All of the ways in which segregation was enforced—not just by law or custom nor formal political power —but everyday practices All of these made us a group that was a pariah class, uh...a group against which pretty much anything could be done.

00:08:42: Uh and these things that happened to us were not seen as a contradiction.

00:08:49: they weren't seen as violating the basic principles that Americans like to think define them.

00:08:56: we're in place with liberty injustice for all.

00:08:58: well There's a big footnote there, or has been.

00:09:02: A Big Footnote throughout most of the birth and life in The United States except for those who were enslaved, except for Those Who Were Formerly Enslaved Except For Those Who Were Subject To Segregation.

00:09:16: So...the entire civil rights movement was an effort to respond to this contradiction, to respond.

00:09:25: The participation of black people in the United States was rationalized as perfectly legitimate, the way it was.

00:09:33: So it's a pushback.

00:09:34: It was an effort to close the contradiction and say look this is what we are saying here are guarantees that are meant for closing the loophole that says everyone except African Americans everybody except for those who are racialized others.

00:09:59: so the civil rights movement comes along and Uses, The law against all predictions uses.

00:10:06: The law to provide benchmarks to provide some kind of Geography from which?

00:10:13: To fight Against a constant effort to marginalize push us back push us down make us less than Others.

00:10:22: And So this you know, sort of contradiction closing project really was the dominant sensibility that I was born into.

00:10:32: I was borne just after one in the major civil rights cases was decided Brown versus Board Of Education.

00:10:39: That was a case it said look segregation segregating little kids undermines their sense of self and undermines our democracy is no longer consistent with our claims.

00:10:51: you know, sort of the leader of The Free World whatever that meant.

00:10:56: And so for most part my youth until I became a law professor this was sort of dominant aspiration or hope, a North Star if it makes sense.

00:11:10: and then promise started deteriorating.

00:11:14: So lot of writing A lot activism A lot thinking has tried to recapture the forward momentum, understand what happened.

00:11:28: Understand what we need to do in order to continue to grab that moral arc of the universe and bend it more in their direction of justice as opposed away from which is basically been a story over last couple decades.

00:11:46: Hey Deute!

00:11:46: Politischer Journalismus muss nicht kommerziell oder öffentlich rechtlich sein.

00:11:51: Podcasts don't have to be financed by aggressive advertising.

00:12:03: Young naive is the best proof for it, so that you

00:12:09: can stay financially supported.

00:12:12: Thanks for watching.

00:12:13: and now we move on!

00:12:16: the man against the man?

00:12:18: It was a new concept to think that, a constitution.

00:12:22: and by this I'm taking us back to the end of The Civil War.

00:12:26: I don't really know how much.

00:12:29: uh...the debate about what the civil war it goes on in United States has moved into global arena.

00:12:36: but here's five second version.

00:12:40: there is a faction prepared to break the country rather than give up their idea that they could hold individuals in human bondage forever.

00:12:54: This was basically what the South wanted, a nation state based explicitly on the principle of white supremacy.

00:13:05: And they were insecure in that aspiration, given the fact that the North was somewhat hostile to the expansion of enslavement.

00:13:16: So those tensions gave rise to conflict which eventually broke out into The Civil War.

00:13:24: They lost The Civil war and Out Of That Moment came what some people call the remaking of The American Republic with new constitutional amendments, that end-of-enslavement.

00:13:37: They creation a full birthright citizenship.

00:13:40: anybody born in the United States is an american citizen.

00:13:45: That still is the Constitutional law although there's some who are trying to change and then they're right to vote.

00:13:51: these were tremendous efforts too create a social reality out of the law to take four million people who had been enslaved and to turn them into citizens with real protections against re-enslavement, against discrimination.

00:14:11: Against all the logics about race.

00:14:13: that said it is legitimate for us to enslave you.

00:14:17: so The first moment in which law was thought to be useful to enact this Social experiment in the aftermath of this civil war.

00:14:27: Now, it lasted about eight years?

00:14:31: Eight years!

00:14:31: It had a good run and then it was overthrown basically by group of people called The Redeemers.

00:14:38: It sounds kind of crazy right now- Because

00:14:39: like the president changed or whatever.

00:14:41: Well... A couple things change.

00:14:43: so first off The Supreme Court started getting into the mix and the supreme court undermined the strength of many of these constitutional amendments.

00:14:53: They first sort limited what the abolition of slavery meant, right?

00:14:57: So there was a sense that okay if enslavement is no longer constitutional and all its badges in incidents are also unconstitutional it should mean racial discrimination as unconstitutional.

00:15:10: It shouldn't mean limitations on how freely you could travel should be unconstitutional.

00:15:16: It should mean that enslavement as a penalty for crime, it shouldn't be

00:15:20: un-constitutional.".

00:15:22: And they didn't like them?

00:15:22: They didn't liked that and that became the biggest loophole one can imagine.

00:15:28: because who gets to define what is considered crime?

00:15:33: Southern legislatures!

00:15:35: What do they define as crime?

00:15:37: not having a

00:15:38: job?!

00:15:40: not having a job.

00:15:44: Traveling, right?

00:15:47: Or just being idle that's called loitering.

00:15:50: so once they have the ability to determine what is criminalizable and The Thirteenth Amendment allows enslavement as a consequence of Being convicted of crime it was a way to recreate enslavements in a more economically advantageous way.

00:16:12: Because if you buy somebody and you overwork them, mistreat them, and effectively render them unable to do work... You've lost an investment!

00:16:23: But if you criminalize the whole population?

00:16:26: And work them to the bone and end up killing

00:16:29: them?!

00:16:29: You just go out get some more!

00:16:32: So huge, huge profits were being made out of this new moment in which the Thirteenth Amendment created this loophole.

00:16:41: And that's just one of many examples where the law made a promise partly because it was bowing to Southern interests, but partly because racism were still very much part of the ideology.

00:16:56: Even then Republicans who were the ones who prosecuted The Civil War and It Was The Party Of Lincoln Who freed the slaves there was still reservation about well how much equality is being anticipated here?

00:17:13: And There Were Limitations On That.

00:17:14: Can you explain like when it only took eight years for the wind to change.

00:17:22: Didn't people who fought against this, you know?

00:17:29: The pro-slavery people?

00:17:31: why didn't they like protest or fight this

00:17:35: war?

00:17:37: They did!

00:17:38: That is why it was over.

00:17:42: in eight years, not only did they fight... No

00:17:47: it didn't mean the Civil War.

00:17:49: Of course The North won the civil war but you said like it took only eight years after?

00:17:53: Eight years after the north one and created these laws that were meant to protect the enslaved people.

00:18:05: We're done?

00:18:05: They said like, okay.

00:18:06: Well they

00:18:06: were done!

00:18:09: You know we see elements of it today.

00:18:11: I'll talk about that later.

00:18:12: but...they did the big pivot right.

00:18:14: so let's put ourselves in a republicans position and this is gonna be kind-of hard for me But This Is What i think they probably were thinking.

00:18:23: Okay So uh..we created four million African Americans that are now citizens, we would have to keep federal troops in the South for a longer period of time than were prepared too.

00:18:42: To ensure their former masters don't come back and re-enslave them or make them less then our citizens.

00:18:52: And frankly... We're losing support for this politically.

00:18:56: People in the North are tired of this issue-

00:18:58: They want their sons back?

00:19:00: And they wanna get me on, and most importantly...they wanna put the family back together.

00:19:09: You know that folks from the north, the folks who went to war against each other To free these others We've done this long enough.

00:19:22: Let's, you know the business of America is business.

00:19:26: it's not recreating You know?

00:19:28: This ideal democracy.

00:19:30: and besides These folks are our brothers in the South.

00:19:34: they know how to handle these people better than we do.

00:19:37: They say they need dominion over them.

00:19:40: let's give it to him Let's walk away.

00:19:43: We'd done.

00:19:43: what we needed to do were done And so That's effectively what they did.

00:19:49: They walked away from the nation-building project and that should be a lesson of course, right?

00:19:56: Because you know United States gets into a lot in Nation building projects.

00:20:00: I heard that are far more complicated than just You know forcing things at the end of a bayonet And the staying power is never really there.

00:20:12: so we know that from our experience, so it's not surprising that we see this same dynamic happening everywhere.

00:20:19: What

00:20:19: about the four million African Americans?

00:20:21: Did they realize what was going on?

00:20:25: Oh

00:20:25: yeah!

00:20:26: They realized what was.

00:20:32: I've written into a program that my organization, the African American Policy Forum did.

00:20:40: And it's a speech with Frederick Douglass who was former slave.

00:20:45: great abolitionists became...I don't know if they're friend of Lincoln but he was at The White House every now and then.

00:20:53: He writes this speech where says something to effect This is after redemption has taken over and the Republicans are abandoning.

00:21:03: The whole project of creating citizenship, he says.

00:21:08: We're in a moment where the cause that was one in the war has been lost And the cause it was lost in the War Has won?

00:21:16: In other words He means That the Confederates the ones who wanted to break the United States our empower.

00:21:22: once again They're able to dictate policy once again with respect to the four million that were liberated and able to dictate the terms upon which they would be citizens.

00:21:35: The union, which supposedly won is now hapless in their promise those African Americans who made their victory possible.

00:21:45: So he says this, you know in the midst of this grand retreat into the end of the nineteenth century when we performed it as part of Sundance Film Festival The day after then President Trump pardoned all the January six rioters and point was basically, here we are in another moment when the cause that we thought is one has been lost and because effectively.

00:22:28: but they didn't lose their power in the national government.

00:22:33: They didn't, you lose their dominion over people?

00:22:36: They were rebelling against United States.

00:22:38: They were not

00:22:38: belling against the United States because of most casualties per capita.

00:22:43: any war that we've been and bloodshed is still part our history.

00:22:48: yet came out to historical victors because fighting for honor this A cause lost, one a cause won.

00:22:58: Lost.

00:22:59: and in some ways we're seeing similar dynamics panel.

00:23:04: What was the legal like

00:23:05: back then?

00:23:06: Yeah

00:23:07: what Like if you were rebelling against the government or again against your country Or like being a traitor?

00:23:14: well what?

00:23:15: where the legal consequences for someone?

00:23:20: Not much, apparently.

00:23:25: There was an effort for example to say if you let it insurrection against the United States You can no longer serve in Congress.

00:23:38: That that was a thought They sat out for, as I said a couple years.

00:23:44: But eventually the leaders of that insurrection—the class that led the insurrection came right back to Congress!

00:23:52: There has been a reluctance to actually enforce any punishment or penalty on those who prosecuted this insurrection then.

00:24:02: and frankly Yeah, we see now the folks who led the insurrection Who were part of the insurrections?

00:24:09: The folks actually Were responsible for the death of police officers.

00:24:15: They served a couple years and Now they're out in about.

00:24:18: so one has to ask what does it mean that Folks who created these conditions of insurrection for the kinds of issues that they were fighting for, basically get a slap on their wrist.

00:24:35: Others who are framed as leading insurrections but to promote more inclusion and equity are being framed as traders or un-American.

00:24:49: My own work has been framed un-American, anti American.

00:24:56: By

00:24:56: who?

00:24:57: Well by the current occupant in The White House uh... by um those were part of them.

00:25:05: maga counter revolution Uh..by some pundits Who have jumped on to the bandwagon Of intersectionality anti wokeism Anti critical race theory wanting to say that these ideas will undermine the American Republic, we'll marginalize our children and make our kids ashamed of being American.

00:25:35: And we're just gonna ban these ideas.

00:25:38: We are going to eliminate academic departments That study this idea's.

00:25:46: We have pursued in last ten years a process of censoring books.

00:25:52: We censor more than ten thousand books in the United States, and forty-nine percent people of color, racialized minorities or LGBTQ plus communities.

00:26:09: That's the kind of pushing out and the punitiveness against those who are pursuing ideologies that the current folks in power don't like.

00:26:19: so if you want to overthrow The government In favor Of maga You're good.

00:26:26: If you wanna argue for Democratic inclusion, if you want to say our history is important to understanding who we are

00:26:35: and

00:26:35: where we wanna go then your the problem.

00:26:38: And were gonna put you in a timeout box that it's not even time out will push about entirely.

00:26:47: but how do explain them?

00:26:49: How do I explain?

00:26:50: well

00:26:52: just like white people think they're superior

00:26:57: I would explain it in a couple ways.

00:26:59: First of all, as history tells us many times that repeats itself if doesn't learn its lessons the first time and second time or third time.

00:27:11: so i talk about redemption and redeemers partly because that faction has never really been disarmed.

00:27:21: they've never truly challenged or really framed as traitors.

00:27:26: They haven't been framed as ideologues who undermine the possibility that we, as Americans can actually create a multi-racial fully inclusive democracy.

00:27:41: The entire civil war has been framed in one of the most famous films ever to be produced called Birth Of A Nation widely regarded as a classic American film, but the Civil War and The Redeemers were framed as heroes in that movie.

00:28:05: And that tracks the way many histories of United States still frames the civil war.

00:28:14: In huge regions it's been called the War Of Northern Aggression not the war of traitors, or not the War to extend slavery into the foreseeable future.

00:28:26: So Viet Thanh Nguyen who's a famous American writer of Vietnamese descent says that wars are fought twice once on the battleground and once in memory.

00:28:40: The war at the Battleground was perhaps won by the Union but the war in memory was won by the South.

00:28:50: So, that idea of reconstruction had been a mistake.

00:28:53: The idea that rights are zero-sum gain... ...the more the rights of the subaltern and marginalized excluded are affirmed.. ..the less there is right for those who see themselves as natural heirs in American projects.

00:29:13: That idea has been rehearsed Again and again, it was rehearsed after redemption when Woodrow Wilson who the rest of the world sees as Mr.

00:29:24: Democracy in The United States He completely segregated that entire federal bureaucracy pushed black people And particularly the Black middle class out Of the jobs an out-of-the career path That had been opened up for them.

00:29:41: so that was a moment of reinforcing a racial order Harming those who were just getting a toll hold in the democracy and that lasted for a couple of generations.

00:29:53: Then we get to Brown versus board of education.

00:29:56: The same idea actually saying that integration is A civil right Was framed by those who wanted to support segregation as discrimination against them.

00:30:10: So equal rights discriminates against people who don't want other people to have equal rights.

00:30:16: And that was a big movement, that involved pretty much every member of Congress...

00:30:22: Seriously?

00:30:23: Seriously!

00:30:24: It's called massive resistance.

00:30:27: and rather than open up the schools to integration state legislators in places like Virginia across the South close the public schools.

00:30:41: If we have to maintain integration in public schools, then you just won't have public schools.

00:30:47: That's how rigid the ideas are around this racial hierarchy.

00:30:54: so fast forward into this current moment there is a backlash against the idea of black president.

00:31:06: There was study done by the Department of Homeland Security in the United States during, um...the Obama administration that found it a greatest threat.

00:31:17: The greatest terrorist threat!

00:31:20: In the united states was not coming from foreign nationals It wasn't coming form outside the united state's.

00:31:29: It was domestic terrorism.

00:31:31: That report is so controversial you really can't find anymore.

00:31:36: It was, it was basically buried.

00:31:39: That's the beginning of-of The Far Right's ascendancy into American politics so its backlash politics that is built on very old ideas.

00:31:50: So these ideas never fully go away!

00:31:53: The people who believe them Never Fully are vanquished.

00:31:57: The stories we tell about them Are never fully honest their place in our self-conception, it's never fully interrogated.

00:32:08: So its dormant and at times like these a political crisis they're available to be blown up again.

00:32:16: And now they've become such a force In American politics that there really is alive question about whether they will destroy our democracy.

00:32:30: Do you think they would rather destroy?

00:32:32: the democracy than to live in a true democracy?

00:32:37: So I take you back, too.

00:32:39: The first verse of this song!

00:32:42: That's what happened in the past.

00:32:45: There has not been a full reckoning with that fact A full recognition of the threat of that fact... ...a full effort to contain that threat.

00:32:56: And now we're at moment where they always said the South would rise again.

00:33:02: Uh, what's rising again is the ideology that more rights for you.

00:33:07: More of a multiracial democracy for us as a whole means that some of us are losing out and we can't have that.

00:33:17: they want to keep their privilege?

00:33:20: They wanna keep what they think America looks like

00:33:23: but do-do you think they know that they would destroy this imperfect democracy?

00:33:30: Our current president has said something like, we may have to shed blood to contain these ideas.

00:33:42: Critical race theory?

00:33:43: He actually said that he might have to share blood and blood was shared in trying to overturn the last election.

00:33:54: so breaking a country for some people is patriotic.

00:34:00: They don't see it as breaking, they see it doing what's necessary to save

00:34:07: it.".

00:34:10: You mentioned Obama.

00:34:10: did you see the backlash coming?

00:34:14: Oh yeah for sure!

00:34:16: Here like in Europe.

00:34:18: oh black president.

00:34:20: now racism is solved.

00:34:24: There's probably no racism anymore in America if there is a black president.

00:34:28: History is over!

00:34:29: Yeah,

00:34:30: everything

00:34:31: will be cool...

00:34:36: We're at the promised land?

00:34:36: Exactly Yes.

00:34:37: I mean The

00:34:38: Tea Party started.

00:34:39: So you know i have to say that.

00:34:41: um..I've been writing about the patterns of reform and retrenchment.

00:34:46: You know twenty years before Barack Obama was even elected.

00:34:53: For me, the patterns of reform and retrenchment are just part of American history.

00:34:59: The real question is how much retrenchement?

00:35:02: How far back will we go?

00:35:03: How long will it take before we reestablish or get back on sort-of forward momentum?

00:35:12: so that story from the nineteenth century was eight years a progress seven decades of retrenchment.

00:35:19: So one just hopes that the next cycle is not that horrific, so I was writing about retrenchments after opening up of institutions like, you know law schools.

00:35:38: I benefited from the Supreme Court and from policymakers efforts to say well we have been a pretty closed society.

00:35:47: let's figure out what we need to do.

00:35:49: uh...to rearrange things too.

00:35:51: open-up these institution.

00:35:53: so i came through on that kind wave.

00:35:57: But as I was there, that wave was shutting down.

00:36:00: It was being reframed as you know reverse discrimination taking opportunities away from those who really deserve them.

00:36:09: so it's always been clear to me That they're on the heels of some kind of forward advancement.

00:36:16: Those who had interests and investments in the way things were.

00:36:21: we're gonna use The language of discrimination is say i'm losing something that I thought I had a right to.

00:36:28: Look, even after the Civil War President Johnson, the first president Johnson vetoed basic anti-discrimination laws—basic laws that give former slaves civil rights by saying it discriminated against white people.

00:36:46: Black peoples still have the imprint of chains on their wrists and ankles creating laws that ensured they could you know, make contracts and buy property.

00:36:57: And have access to the things that white people had access too.

00:37:00: even that was framed as reverse discrimination.

00:37:05: so if you could frame making full citizenship rights accessible to formerly enslaved People As Reverse Discrimination then You can frame anything after That as Reversed Discrimination.

00:37:18: So part of the backlash politics.

00:37:22: Of the eighties and nineties that I saw in wrote about.

00:37:27: so when Barack Obama was elected, it was pretty clear there was going to be a backlash.

00:37:33: The only question was how deep?

00:37:37: How wide?

00:37:38: How many people would be impacted And how effective It Would Be?

00:37:45: i think the first term of Trumpism Gave us a picture of how damaging it was in that moment.

00:37:55: But I don't think a lot people necessarily thought That it would really undermine the foundations Of our democracy.

00:38:05: I Don't think that a lot of people thought that It might be an open question How free are elections will be in the future?

00:38:13: And i'm pretty sure a lot, of people didn't think like me, people who do work in LGBTQ issues and so on would only be the first layer of the censorship that would eventually extend to universities.

00:38:36: Entire disciplines would extend to law firms took up cases defending people who were discriminated against or defending our democracy and certainly wouldn't extend to legacy news organizations like CBS.

00:38:59: I don't think people saw that coming, And i think the question now might be all right?

00:39:06: Now that we're here what do We tell ourselves about how this happened?

00:39:12: What do we tell ourselves about the warning signs that maybe we should have paid attention to?

00:39:19: And what did we do at this moment.

00:39:21: Yeah,

00:39:22: Maybe We Should Learn from history and some mistakes.

00:39:25: since you mentioned The War of Memory You know they use it like okay There's two.

00:39:30: there are two wars.

00:39:31: yeah one you've won your fight physically and then the One About memory.

00:39:36: yeah Since you mentioned the legacy media Trump people or like those loyalist taking over CBS buying tick tock and all you know Warner Brothers

00:39:51: Yeah,

00:39:53: is that it's a part of this war?

00:39:56: You know of memory.

00:39:58: Like mm-hmm Is there reason behind why they use their immense wealth their billions of dollars To have power to connect with people,

00:40:16: To get

00:40:16: in their head.

00:40:17: Absolutely I mean why are they going after institutions that reflect and therefore also create culture?

00:40:31: Why aren't they happy just having the power over the guns right And police Because they know that the kind of social order, uh...that they're trying to create has come not just from external coercion.

00:40:48: It has to come form creating conditions under which most people think All right.

00:40:54: This seems right or this seems like the only way things can be.

00:40:59: you want to try to generate Consent, do you wanna?

00:41:03: Try to generate the idea that You know our leaders are actually steering us in the right direction.

00:41:11: And so when you're going through a period of sort of massive reversal In which your undermining though the ideas and the feeling that people have, we're moving in a direction of greater inclusion.

00:41:28: You've got to do two things.

00:41:30: first you gotta erase conditions on the ground when we don't have those values in place, When We Don't Have The Kinds of Laws That Protect Against Discrimination and Exclusion And Political Marginalization.

00:41:49: So you've got to do a lot To erase that history!

00:41:52: Um...and I have to be honest my basic beef isn't really with them for doing what is on brand because they said We want to take America back.

00:42:07: To this time before yeah, we had to deal with you people and You women?

00:42:12: And you queer folks we want to go back to the time where you know, we knew what a family was.

00:42:18: We knew we knew.

00:42:21: were you know racialized people belonged.

00:42:25: We knew what a man and woman was, we wanna go back to that time when everything was clear.

00:42:32: And our status was affirmed in everything we saw on television, everything we believe... That's the world we want to go back too.

00:42:42: so they are on brand right?

00:42:45: They've got an objective, sort of.

00:42:49: uh-they've got the rhetoric, I'm good with that.

00:42:57: It's the other side, not on brand because if these folks are aware of attacking history and erasing all this stuff is essential to their objectives.

00:43:11: now they've broadened it into reclaiming cultural institutions, reclaiming CBS going for sixty minutes.

00:43:22: sixty minutes, the most celebrated news show in American television history.

00:43:29: They know that's important territory and they've grabbed it.

00:43:36: Our side isn't so sure about what the game is.

00:43:39: Our side Isn't So Sure About Whether We Should Put Everything On The Battlefield To Reclaim our History, to Reclaim These Institutions.

00:43:49: Our Side Isn't-So-Sure If we Need Even Be Talking About This!

00:43:53: Our Side Acquiesces To The Idea That This Is A Culture War And it's only those folks who are concerned about culture, Who are in it.

00:44:03: Our side isn't recognizing that this is about real lives.

00:44:07: our side doesn't realize That people are dying because of This cultural war.

00:44:12: Our Side doesn't Realize that these ideas Are not just names They're actually projects they're programs there There ways of thinking About their concepts that really make a difference.

00:44:26: but what?

00:44:26: why does our side, whoever that is.

00:44:29: I mean there's like the left liberals maybe but you count them as you know anti-fascists.

00:44:35: i guess

00:44:36: yeah i'm counting As that

00:44:38: do you mean?

00:44:39: Like because here happens The same as in like.

00:44:43: people are like.

00:44:44: why?

00:44:45: Why like?

00:44:45: they view You know the acquisition of x or the acquisition Of cbs and other Other media institution like from an economical aspect perspective.

00:44:57: Oh, Elon paid way too much.

00:44:59: Look at him losing money.

00:45:01: or why is Ellison buying Warner Brothers and all this?

00:45:07: Is he over-leveraged?

00:45:10: Exactly!

00:45:12: They only view it from an economic lens And not that money is a means to an end.

00:45:20: Like they use their wealth to get power.

00:45:28: And

00:45:29: why does our side not see this?

00:45:31: Yeah, I think.

00:45:33: well that's my big Y too.

00:45:35: Okay okay so we are both like saying Why aren't you seeing it?

00:45:40: but y'know i speculate right.

00:45:43: So one...I would say there is an analogy in which Did they pay too much?

00:45:51: It's sort of like the way that media look at elections in terms of a soccer match, football.

00:46:00: So Trump loses it to Supreme Court not... The limitations.

00:46:09: executive power actually now may have some teeth and stay tuned This team or this team, it's sort of being called like a sports match.

00:46:22: I think that is also what's going on in the arena of cultural production.

00:46:29: who got better into The Deal?

00:46:32: as though the only actors and this we need to be concerned about would be the buyer-and-the seller not the rest of entire country will lose from one person or a very small group of people deciding what's legitimate to broadcast, both in terms of news but also in the broader storytelling.

00:47:01: One thing that is happening now behind this scene are storytellers fully aware there some stories are no longer marketable.

00:47:13: And that marketability is not in terms of whether they're consumers out there who want those stories, but whether the producers are willing to allow those stories to be put into the marketplace.

00:47:25: so this whole idea of culture and news being sort-of a free market it's kind of never fully has been, but people made pretensions to some degree.

00:47:41: Of you know we can't just have the person who owns this decide everything that gets out there?

00:47:47: But now we're looking at a period time where they are.

00:47:49: handful of people were gonna if their successful own.

00:47:54: the means of communication.

00:47:56: is it why They went after social media platforms?

00:48:00: Oh

00:48:00: my goodness.

00:48:01: Yeah

00:48:04: It's pretty nice idea.

00:48:06: I mean people used it for good and, you know to show a system of inequalities of abuses or power.

00:48:17: Is that why they need to go in own acts?

00:48:19: And on Tick Tock and, You Know owned the algorithm and two filter out pro Palestine solidarity and all this.

00:48:28: we don't have to guess That.

00:48:30: They kind Of said it.

00:48:33: I mean Elon Musk.

00:48:35: I just say exhibit A through Z. There's just nothing else you really need other than read his feed, he'll tell

00:48:44: ya!

00:48:44: He doesn't like critical race theory?

00:48:46: No...he-he

00:48:47: doesn't liked critical anything.

00:48:52: Let's talk about you.

00:48:53: Yeah

00:48:55: You became a lawyer.

00:48:55: were your parents lawyers?

00:48:57: that not.

00:48:57: no my parents were educator school teachers but my father.

00:49:05: So I was born and raised in Canton, Ohio.

00:49:08: Ohio is a little Midwestern state.

00:49:13: it has said...I don't know if its true anymore but for some period of time whichever way Ohio went the Presidency went.

00:49:21: i think that might still be the case maybe with exception Obama But It Is A Bell Weather State which means you know, a blue or red consistently.

00:49:35: For people like me it meant that while segregation was not imposed by law It wasn't posed by custom.

00:49:46: so I grew up as A black child in the state That didn't fully impose segregation but The patterns and practices of anti-blackness were kind of there.

00:49:59: In that context, my mother taught music.

00:50:03: My father also was a teacher...

00:50:06: I got to school for black children?

00:50:08: No not formally Not formally.

00:50:13: So segregation was more matter of housing patterns in Ohio.

00:50:18: so there were schools.

00:50:22: At that time, you more likely have almost all white school than an exclusively black school because on the black side of town there was somewhat more racial integration.

00:50:35: But as Black folks moved into other neighborhoods White folks tended to move out.

00:50:43: so my family was The second black family That moved in our neighborhood By the time I when I was three by the time.

00:50:52: I was in high school, I would say it was pretty much a majority black if not probably eighty Eighty-five percent Black neighborhood.

00:51:01: and this happened all over the United States.

00:51:04: Did you notice?

00:51:08: Our neighbor is getting less and less white.

00:51:11: I noticed from that.

00:51:14: I write about this in the book.

00:51:17: When we went to look at The House, I was little-little.

00:51:22: they had help me get up on the first step into the house and there were just kids running around the neighborhood as really excited to have playmates.

00:51:35: when we moved in, I remember it just felt suddenly like a ghost town.

00:51:39: And went and stood on the edge of our... We had little retaining wall that I stood like a sentinel looking one way look another way.

00:51:48: what happened to all the kids?

00:51:50: So you know-

00:51:52: Who explained this for ya?

00:51:54: Did he ask?

00:51:55: You know i didn't asked..I don't think I asked.

00:52:00: maybe my parents explain it to me.

00:52:02: but what actually changed the situation as more black families were moving in.

00:52:09: And this is, this is what would happen in American real estate.

00:52:13: so once a neighborhood was integrated it would move from being... It's called redlining.

00:52:21: It moved from being a neighborhood that was all green and that meant that it was safe for investment.

00:52:30: Once my family would move in it, it would change colors right to from green To eventually red.

00:52:37: My neighborhood and right now is probably read because It means there's almost all you know black folk or brown folk And it's not safe for investment.

00:52:46: But what happened was?

00:52:49: As Black folks were trying to find places to move Because other places where segregated with It was hard to get property.

00:52:58: Even the real estate code of conduct actually said that for a realtor, to sell property to black family and in some places they also were anti-Semitic.

00:53:14: so...to Jewish families It violates their code of good conduct.

00:53:21: So what?

00:53:22: Yes, so segregation.

00:53:25: when we say structural racism this is part of the structure.

00:53:29: it's like yeah well you know because if you do that You compromise the property values Of the people there The People who already live There.

00:53:39: Just by our presence They're.

00:53:41: But how was it legal?

00:53:42: Like How could Jewish people or African-Americans did not go to the courts

00:53:46: until... Well, into... ...the courts and be like.

00:53:47: Until nineteen sixty eight it wasn't legal to discriminate on the basis of race in real estate right?

00:53:55: It was..it wasn't illegal.

00:53:58: Now what was also happening is that a lot property had things called restrictive covenants attached to them.

00:54:07: so even where there were fair housing laws, and even after it became clear that states couldn't force people to discriminate but individuals could if they wanted to.

00:54:23: And then other individuals would have this agreement.

00:54:26: so say you're in a neighborhood... It's all white folks ...it's clear that there is pressure ,there's demand for black-and-brown folks to move in.

00:54:35: the White folk want to figure out What kind of agreement do we need to have with each other?

00:54:40: To make sure that where's safe.

00:54:42: We're solid So they will come up with these restrictive covenants.

00:54:46: That said, you know if eighty five percent of us agree that we're not gonna sell our homes to a black or brown person This covenant is now effective and so if someone violates the Covenant we can go in enforce that contract.

00:55:03: And what enforcement meant is if a black family had moved in and taken possession of a home, another white person went to court said the person who sold them that house violated contractual relationship they have with me not sell this property.

00:55:28: The Black Family could be evicted from because of contract between two white people saying, I'll never sell this home to someone.

00:55:40: So many, many homes across the nation including homes owned by Supreme Court justices had these restrictive covenants there.

00:55:53: but did they like?

00:55:55: get together at some point and you're gonna have meetings on how to, adapt to minority rights or equal rights.

00:56:04: I would say the flourishing of the magnation that we now is a product.

00:56:09: all those meeting they started having in late nineteen sixties about protections that were starting to come onto the books against all of these different formulations and ways of maintaining segregated living in The United States.

00:56:32: Now, here's... Here is the kicker.

00:56:38: So my family moved.

00:56:40: As I said, we were one of few.

00:56:43: Eventually it became mostly black.

00:56:46: there was some families that couldn't move out.

00:56:49: they are generally the grandmothers whose kids would move out and set up shop somewhere else.

00:56:57: They're left behind.

00:56:58: There's what i write about called Barefoot Annie.

00:57:00: she is an Italian descent.

00:57:03: She didn't speak much English but did have a word where you could use a lot.

00:57:08: It starts with N. So every time we rode by you know, she would throw stuff at us

00:57:14: born in the nineteenth century.

00:57:15: She was probably I mean i guess if I Was a kid and she was maybe In her thirties or so.

00:57:21: he was probably born in The twentieth century but she was an immigrant And many of the people in our neighborhood Many of white folks in Our neighborhood were immigrants which is An interesting thing because our families Would have been in United States for many generations.

00:57:37: We're talking about new White folks, yeah who don't want us in their neighborhood.

00:57:43: So there's tension between you know black folks who were born but are not seen as legitimately American and immigrants Who?

00:57:52: Are white and our enforcing the exclusion of us?

00:57:56: wasn't there a time when being from Italy Was considered non-white?

00:58:01: Yes, and being from Ireland was considered not white.

00:58:07: When did that change?

00:58:08: Isn't it interesting?

00:58:09: so... Did they

00:58:11: need a bigger tent or something?

00:58:12: So there are people who were saying this is happening in the United States today That There's A Need To Create A Bigger Tent Out Of Whiteness But in terms of when and how it happened, so there are books called When the Irish Became White.

00:58:30: There's a book that just talks about the process by which the gaps between Northern Europe and Southern Europe actually collapse in the United States when The Racial Project Of Whiteness allowed for folks who at the borders were seen as, we don't know about them.

00:58:54: But eventually they become absorbed into the whitening of America.

00:58:59: I mean it starts by changing your name a little bit.

00:59:03: you take The Last E Off pronounce it a little differently.

00:59:08: The second generation doesn't have the accent, they are easily integrated into new neighborhoods go to new schools.

00:59:18: They don't have that burden of otherness.

00:59:21: when That otherness is largely performative you just performed differently.

00:59:26: or You save your Irish-ness for St.

00:59:29: Patrick's Day but the rest of time?

00:59:35: not a non-white person.

00:59:38: There's a sense that might be happening with other immigrant groups today, Asian Americans there is some question about that Latina folks especially when it comes to conflicts between whites and nonwhites.

01:00:01: just two days ago There was a case that was like the Trayvon Martin case.

01:00:09: So, Trayvan Martin as you might remember I don't know if... That was fifteen years ago.

01:00:15: he's young fourteen-year old black kid who was stalked and killed by white appearing Latino man George Zimmerman.

01:00:32: white black binary might be broadening to include other non-whites in the category, at least when it comes to vigilanteism and murder.

01:00:50: So just the other day there's another case where a young African American man was chased out of a convenience store by an Asian store owner and from what I've been able to read, I haven't followed the case really closely.

01:01:05: He was shot in...in the back And he was acquitted on the claim of self-defense or defending his son.

01:01:14: These are moments that people were looking at very carefully To say had the situation been the reverse?

01:01:21: Had it been a black store owner who was chasing a young Asian man and shot him in the back, just like if there'd have been Trayvon Martin who had killed Zimmerman.

01:01:32: But those would've been acquittals?

01:01:34: most of us think probably not.

01:01:37: so there's something going on here with respect to... anti-blackness and how it might be playing out differently for other non whites who are not black.

01:01:50: Back to your life?

01:01:51: Yes!

01:01:52: When did, when did you family realize that you were smart cookie?

01:01:58: That's a good question.

01:02:01: You know What's interesting about my family my mom in particular Is.

01:02:09: she never really said that I was smart to me.

01:02:18: But she would say it to other people when she thought they were getting in my way, so... I have a story and the book about.

01:02:29: When i went to Catholic school from my inner city neighborhood School for high school My mom registered Me In this Catholic school And Came home.

01:02:42: I was talking to my best friend one day who is also registered in that school and we were talking about how much fun We were gonna have during our high school years.

01:02:51: because Like so there are four tracks basically honors first track second track, and fourth track for track was vocational education.

01:03:08: The track right above it was where they put my friend and me.

01:03:14: It just so happened that the books we were reading, The Instruction, Homework... Was all stuff we had done a year before!

01:03:22: So.. We were giggling about how much fun it would have been to get our party on because.... We've already done the homework.

01:03:31: We thought this is going to be the greatest thing ever.

01:03:35: My mom overhears this conversation.

01:03:38: I didn't know she'd hurt us.

01:03:40: So next day, I'm in the classroom, I've stretched out and just goofing off and I hear my name over the loudspeaker.

01:03:48: they call me down to the principal's office like okay what have I done?

01:03:53: In earlier chapters I talk about some of things that did do get in trouble but there I am a walk-in and see mom sitting here infront of sister none had all And she tells me to sit down and like, oh boy they're about.

01:04:13: see the other side of my mom.

01:04:15: And effectively my mom has brought all my homework.

01:04:18: She showed that I've done this work and says i want my daughter you know To be elevated ,she needs in track.

01:04:25: That really challenges her.

01:04:27: The nun is well we'll give it some time.

01:04:30: We will see how she does.

01:04:31: My Mom said I don't think u understand what im saying.

01:04:35: And she goes on this thing saying, my mission in life is to make sure that you and all the teachers out of here get out of her way.

01:04:45: That is what I'm here for.

01:04:47: That means you will put her in the class she's supposed to be in.

01:04:53: If I have come back out here again, You Will Not Be Happy with My Being Here!

01:05:05: actually sees great things for me.

01:05:08: I'm not seeing it from myself, I'm embarrassed at this point and she realizes that she has to monitor these institutions.

01:05:16: She has to be vigilant because if she's not... These things are going to get in my way and underprepare me for whatever opportunities might be opening up.

01:05:28: so That is When I kind of realized that first of all my mother was a lioness, she would go to the mat as much as needed in order to clear out these obstacles.

01:05:43: She thought with those obstacles cleared it by way there's been alot i could do.

01:05:57: I mean, you're famous for coining the term intersectionality.

01:06:08: When did you as a young woman not only realize that your African American but also... That part of your life and your situation is because you are women?

01:06:21: And Because You Are Part Of The Lower Class?

01:06:24: Yeah

01:06:26: Well when does it come together?

01:06:28: Specifically It Was Because i was Black.

01:06:33: So my very first, the second story in a book is about that.

01:06:38: I talk about wanting to be a princess and this kindergarten play that we did... And every day you know asking my teacher if-if i could be Thorn Rosa?

01:06:55: That was the name of this play!

01:06:58: Every day she said know, but you can be the horse or you could be the cow.

01:07:05: You could be The Pig?

01:07:05: Um, you could Be the Wicked Witch.

01:07:09: I got cast as the Wicket Witch.

01:07:11: a lot was good wicked witch Or so I thought and I went along with it thinking that she was seeing how dedicated I was to the game what A Good Actor I Was.

01:07:24: Eventually I would get a chance To Be Thorn Rosa.

01:07:27: It Was My Thought.

01:07:29: We Get you know, closer to the end of school year.

01:07:32: And I start to kind of panic and started thinking is there something gonna happen here?

01:07:40: It's like am i not going get a chance?

01:07:44: be the

01:07:44: princess?".

01:07:46: She likes me...I'm doing well eventually it'll happened.

01:07:51: then we got into last day class.

01:07:54: Then im really in overdrive tugging at her skirt every hour.

01:07:59: Thorn Rosa!

01:08:00: Thorn Rosa.

01:08:01: And so finally, just before the bell rings she gathers us all together.

01:08:06: we start singing in a little song.

01:08:07: that whole little parade of characters comes into this circle and then as I'm supposed to make my entrance at Thorn-Rosa The Bell Rings.

01:08:18: Of course i am going cry You know?

01:08:20: So tears start welling up.

01:08:24: She finally sees for first time how much anguish it is causing me.

01:08:30: We quickly reconstitute the circle outside, holding hands.

01:08:37: And I come again.

01:08:38: just as I enter the circle The parents come and start taking their kids because it's end of year It is time for summer.

01:08:46: So then i started to wail.

01:08:48: My brother Mantle was on other side of playground.

01:08:53: He comes running over.

01:08:55: he said what happened?

01:08:57: And all I could do is keep repeating Thorne Rosa, Thorne-Rosa.

01:09:02: Well he thinks Thorne Rose as a girl who's beating me up.

01:09:05: so he's asking everybody... Who are her people?

01:09:08: Where did they

01:09:09: live?!

01:09:10: So he goes off to try and find the Rosa family!

01:09:14: So i go home you know leading this procession of my friends in sort of funeral like uh, march home and throw myself on the bed.

01:09:26: And I just-I cannot be consoled at

01:09:30: all.".

01:09:30: Uh my brother gets home.

01:09:32: he has no information about The Rosa Family.

01:09:35: My parents are like okay we're gonna call a teacher find out what happened.

01:09:39: um...and because they were school teachers you know They could talk to each other..And then called in got the skinny on this situation.

01:09:48: What's interesting is that, I don't know what they said to my teacher but my teachers showed up at my house and came into my room.

01:09:56: And basically tried to console me with promises of being Thorne Rosa next year.

01:10:05: you know?

01:10:05: It wasn't stupid!

01:10:07: New kindergarten was over...I was not princess material And I count that as a moment, you know just the flicker of recognition That there was something going on.

01:10:24: But I credit my parents the most for that because they could have said Why are you crying about something so silly?

01:10:34: As being a fairytale princess.

01:10:37: There are so many more important things out there that are gonna happen to you in this world, You don't need to be wasting tears over A little kitty game.

01:10:48: They might have said something like.

01:10:52: our people Are fighting for their lives right now.

01:10:55: Right Now Why are you crying about This?

01:10:58: Or who wants To Be a Disney Princess?

01:11:02: Oh, you're a black girl.

01:11:05: I mean they could have done the Black Girl magic thing!

01:11:07: They couldn't've done any of those things but they didn't.

01:11:11: and in their nurturing of me there was... There-there was a refusal to diminish that i had been injured in some way.

01:11:23: um A refusal to erase The world.

01:11:27: Um That that was encountering me.

01:11:31: And I think the fact they listened, saw there's something that wasn't a miss and pursued it to find out what had happened.

01:11:42: They demanded some kind of reckoning not all reckonings are going put you in place where would have wanted be but at least an awareness.

01:11:58: something not fair has happened.

01:12:01: You might not get what you want, but at least we're gonna see that something happen and That was what allowed me to start paying attention When other things would happen I?

01:12:14: Would Not dismiss it or say oh maybe it's this Maybe sat.

01:12:18: i would ask myself about It.

01:12:19: i will pay close closed Attention.

01:12:22: And when i saw the pattern i'd Say you know What i think This Has To do With This This body this thing that I'm walking around in, In the society.

01:12:36: It wasn't about an internalized sense of my value.

01:12:42: it was About how The world Was seeing me and That's what i credit My parents for helping Me you know to see And then To navigate.

01:12:50: When did You realize why?

01:12:58: A little later, I ended up going to a fundamentalist Christian school.

01:13:07: Yeah that is funny for back talking family like ours and lot of people say why would your parents?

01:13:17: And my parents were big civil rights advocates.

01:13:21: they were all

01:13:22: into it.

01:13:24: So my grandfather was a Christian Methodist Episcopal minister.

01:13:30: So, my father was a preacher's kid and mother was doctor's kid.

01:13:34: They were both Sunday church going people.

01:13:38: My mom and dad were ministers of music in our church.

01:13:42: so they are Christians you know, Bible thumping.

01:13:48: You know every moment let's go to the bible and see what it has to say about.

01:13:53: if they were The Good Sunday, you know?

01:13:55: uh...the moral compass of Christianity kind of practitioners.

01:14:01: And I think that thought was going on at this school.

01:14:06: At that point in the sixties there wasn't a deep recognition What Christian fundamentalism was going to be politically or racially?

01:14:22: And what was happening is a lot of these schools were we're sprouting, you know across the country.

01:14:27: private school

01:14:28: private schools Back too.

01:14:31: I was saying earlier if we have to Operate integrated schools We just won't have school.

01:14:37: so some people are like if i gotta send my kid to school and let's send him two one Of These Schools that you know, reflects my values.

01:14:44: Well for some people those values were non-integration and Some of that was framed in terms of Christian fundamentalism.

01:14:53: So there I am You know a fly in the ointment from The only black kid In my class.

01:15:02: And in That context We had moments in which the teacher would This is crazy.

01:15:12: We got taught out of the book of revelations for our health class.

01:15:17: and you know, revelations in what?

01:15:19: In The Bible.

01:15:20: yeah Yeah I gotta Yeah post-traumatic women's right now.

01:15:25: And You Know it's all this story about the rapture that's coming and you knows What's gonna happen to all the people who are not saved.

01:15:36: So they would like have these movies where there's a pilot whose piloting the plane and he's really, you know a happy born-again Christian.

01:15:47: And the rapture happens and poof!

01:15:50: He's gone...and only things sitting in this seat is like the captain's hat.

01:15:55: Of course the plane crashes with everybody on screaming This what going to happen if you don't accept our version of Christianity and get saved, so this stuff is happening.

01:16:11: And it's bad enough as it is.

01:16:12: but for some folks the final days have been symbolized by The Rise Of The Civil Rights Movement ,The Rise Of Black Liberation movement .

01:16:24: The rise of new characters on scene ranging from you know Some didn't even like Martin Luther King But they really don't like people Like Malcolm X. They Really Didn't Like People Like The Black Panthers and my brother who was a teenager, although we were in Ohio far from all that stuff.

01:16:41: He kind of liked that stuff.

01:16:43: so he was a dashiki wearing you know black tan-wearing person And I was beginning to learn the sort political orientation for him.

01:16:54: So when they started doing some you know, the final days are happening.

01:16:59: These are demonic symbols of end-of-days and stuff I'm constantly putting my hand up because this is my brother.

01:17:12: these people that i admire love d'Angela Davis.

01:17:16: so was a moment when beginning to learn race was politically meaningful to people.

01:17:27: It was a signal, it was a symbol that embodied something deeply negative.

01:17:33: and this is how would show up in classroom context?

01:17:38: In social contexts?

01:17:40: Because they never dared make an explicit...

01:17:44: Well now it's explicit!

01:17:46: Now if you're gonna call you know some of these activists, demonic it's pretty explicit what you're saying.

01:17:59: So it was a heavy dose for me and it sort of brought things together.

01:18:05: now there were plenty times before that where I kind of clear something going on like i got accused a few years earlier of stealing somebody's stupid little instrument.

01:18:18: And it was clear that I was being accused of it because, uh...of who i was and all my friends you know saw the whole thing go down.

01:18:28: um nobody did anything about it.

01:18:31: That's when I was sort-of realizing things will happen to you.

01:18:36: people see Things Will Happen To You.

01:18:38: They'll Know It's Unfair but they may not step up to defend you in those spaces.

01:18:47: So I was beginning to learn more and more about some of the limitations around friendships, around solidarity that might be produced by race and then later by gender as well.

01:19:03: How long did it take you?

01:19:04: And off course others too like eventually come up with a new theory about all this...I mean how do Academic theory, I mean we're talking about critical race theory.

01:19:16: Yeah Well

01:19:23: sounds like it led up.

01:19:25: yeah so So the point of writing a memoir to tell that story is To challenge The idea That ideas academic ideas legal ideas are sort of top-down enterprises.

01:19:41: you just You go to your office and you go like this, And then think really hard.

01:19:45: Then come up with something... And write it down.

01:19:52: That's not my view about where theory comes from.

01:19:54: It is not the way concepts are.

01:19:57: So I wanted to tell My story From experience Up.

01:20:04: Thorn Rose was a part of that Story Things that happened in high school In college in law school.

01:20:13: These are all moments where the way race and gender were shaping this social world was becoming more apparent to me, so that's happening at into law school at precisely the time that, upward momentum I was talking about earlier with starting to reverse.

01:20:45: So i'm living in these institutions and seeing consequences of how certain limited ways what unfairness looks like, limited ways of imagining what the long shadow of the past was actually doing in our space.

01:21:09: How that was not being met by the relevant laws that protected us against discrimination?

01:21:18: By the policies that were meant to create diversity equity and inclusion.

01:21:23: I mean i'm in these institutions and i'm asking so why don't we have a course on race, racism and American law along with a lot of my other friends in cohort.

01:21:34: Why aren't there any more than one black faculty member here on the Faculty of Seventy?

01:21:43: why are they only two women on a faculty like?

01:21:48: Are you guys going to do something about this?

01:21:50: Do You See This as situation that needs to be corrected?

01:21:55: And for the most part, they were kind of okay with it.

01:21:58: They were saying you know... The pool of qualified people to come here and do what we all do is really quite shallow.

01:22:12: so we have to wait until the pool gets populated in some way possible.

01:22:22: candidates will sort of grow feet and legs, walk out at the pool somehow.

01:22:28: Without much of a conversation about okay how is the pool being constituted in the first place?

01:22:35: If you say that there are not enough qualified women or qualified people to come here and teach then explain what counts as qualification.

01:22:47: when we pressed them to articulate that, an amazing thing happened.

01:22:54: It's one thing when you see a picture and it's just a monochromatic picture is another thing.

01:23:00: where then they explain why it looks that way?

01:23:04: so what they explained was did you go to Harvard Law School or in equivalent law school?

01:23:12: Well for the populations of people we wanted absolutely discriminated against women until like well into I think the nineteen fifties or something.

01:23:25: so that undermined you know, that sort of pipeline.

01:23:29: The pipeline was just closed.

01:23:32: So if have a bear trickle ten or twenty years later That's not natural neutral or meritocratic.

01:23:41: thats just reproducing though very limited a pipeline that they themselves had come out of.

01:23:50: And the same was with respect to race, now Harvard interestingly always have very few black people that it admitted but not enough to create a pipeline.

01:24:04: then on top did you work as an influential professor?

01:24:09: Well, if you came to law school and you were interested in advancing the cause of civil rights in the nineteen fifties.

01:24:17: You are going have a lot of people to work with because that's not how they got there right?

01:24:21: That's what their interest it is.

01:24:23: then did you go on to clerk for a fancy judge or Supreme Court Judge?

01:24:30: very, very few people color women ever had the opportunity to clerk for a Supreme Court judge?

01:24:37: I mean, it wasn't until nineteen sixty-eight or something when Durgan Marshall became the first black supreme court justice.

01:24:45: So you weren't going to have a whole lot of people and then did you go and work for a fancy blue chip law firm?

01:24:52: Law firms were segregated well into the middle of the twentieth century.

01:24:56: so describe a raced and gendered pipeline as neutral, simply because you didn't have on the front door no blacks or women need apply.

01:25:11: You didn't has to!

01:25:13: Because you were relying on a pipeline that itself was already raced in gender.

01:25:19: But they told themself...

01:25:21: They told themselves it's neutral.

01:25:24: Time will fix it.

01:25:26: You know, let's just give it time.

01:25:28: but in the meantime there we are students who went to these schools how to navigate these spaces, if we wanted to become civil rights lawyers or heaven forbid law professors.

01:25:43: We want it to be instructed in some of the ideas that were exposed and learned from people who are dealing with those same barriers.

01:25:58: Thank you so much, Kimberly.

01:26:00: We didn't even realize this.

01:26:01: let's change this right now.

01:26:03: Yeah.

01:26:04: So uh no

01:26:06: Thanks for back talking to us.

01:26:09: it wasn't that It was in fact they doubled down when our dean told us That there were no qualified people.

01:26:17: Uh that very year Harvard went on and hired ten white men In one class Ten No women No people in color, ten white men.

01:26:29: So they were not thinking that this was something needed to be reviewed thought about fixed adjusted and the idea is we're supposed just deal with... In fact when you are saying who's a liberal dean he was good guy but so deeply invested into institution of way it was thinking benign that he was unable to critique the limitations of those investments.

01:27:01: So when we said, look We want a course on constitutional law and minority issues He was like what's so special about that course?

01:27:09: Why can't you just take a course in Constitutional Law And then go into you know volunteer legal work in a poor black community.

01:27:18: I mean, it was sort of that.

01:27:20: and we said well look you wouldn't say that to anyone who comes here wants to learn corporate tax?

01:27:25: You wouldn't take a course on corporations then go do some pro bono work at attacks...I mean you would not say that!

01:27:34: And its just the reflection or fact is there's no knowledge gained by studying the role law has played in creating racial hierarchy and how.

01:27:45: that knowledge should help us understand what needs to be done, to dismantle it.

01:27:50: That is a hard topic!

01:27:53: And not to educate us on that... ...is to do us a

01:27:56: disservice.".

01:27:57: So did they say okay why didn't you say that?

01:28:00: Heck no but that's what led to critical race theory because we then understood was A- We had to pursue an alternative course which we did.

01:28:14: And that alternative course drew students and law professors of color across the country to come and teach from a book called Race Racism in American Law.

01:28:25: Then fast forward, four or five years later myself and two other law professors created a retreat where we invited all the folks who had been part to talk about what held our scholarly interest together.

01:28:48: We were people who are interested in race, but not solely from the perspective of civil rights practice and we were interested in theory...but NOT race!

01:29:01: We were interested how race could be seen as an area of theoretical study.

01:29:06: so I threw those words came up with this idea called, a name.

01:29:14: Called critical race theory?

01:29:16: You've come up with it yes

01:29:17: and invited people to new developments in critical race Theory even though there had never been an old development in Critical Race Theory.

01:29:26: It was like putting velvet ropes out There.

01:29:29: when People See Velvet Ropes They Think That There's A There So they try to get themselves in the place.

01:29:36: And that's what happened, thirty people came and the rest is...the growth of movement.

01:29:41: Can I tell you how i got into contact with CRT first time at my high school in Texas?

01:29:47: Texas!

01:29:48: Listen..I had a black teacher.

01:29:51: She explained it to me....and I wrote down because I remembered yesterday Just thought okay let see What did.

01:29:59: creator thinks she compared it to psychoanalysis.

01:30:03: Oh, okay.

01:30:03: From a hundred years ago because it's comparable... Because Psychoanalysis claims that actors do not fully know their own motives and repressions You know?

01:30:19: And CRT says something similar.

01:30:21: she said about institutions in racism.

01:30:25: I want to meet your teacher!

01:30:28: Yeah

01:30:30: And I immediately got it.

01:30:33: Yeah, all right.

01:30:34: so we need to adapt To that you know because It's amazing to me how hard it is for people to actually get it You Know and How easy it Is?

01:30:45: To distort.

01:30:46: i think some People Actually intend to Distort So i don't want to you know Credit Their Distortions For the difficulty of Understanding it.

01:30:56: i Think i'll say this i love That Definition.

01:30:59: what I want people to understand, particularly stakeholders in racial justice is that those of us in the academy are not trying to simply create entirely new ideas.

01:31:13: What we're trying to do often is translate the experiential dimension within the disciplines that communicate, within policy discourses.

01:31:32: That allow us to aggregate our experiences into ways to move policy in a direction towards racial equity and inclusion.

01:31:42: so the idea is not this foreign it's just an alternative way of describing realities we live.

01:31:51: Um, we may have missed opportunities to explain this work.

01:31:58: To those who actually are beneficiaries of it.

01:32:02: so It's another reason why I wrote the book So that you know?

01:32:06: I don't think most of these stories i tell here Are gonna be um Unfamiliar to a lot of readers.

01:32:13: what I want them to do is understand, okay you experience this.

01:32:17: You experienced that This Is What Law Has To Do With It and understanding That Relationship Between Law And Your Experience Is What Critical Race Theory Is Trying To Do?

01:32:30: I found a survey from July twenty-twenty one uh...that said like fifty seven percent of all American adults are not even familiar with CRT And of those who were familiar, only five percent.

01:32:47: Five over a hundred people correctly answered all seven true false questions when it came to critical race theory which is kind of amazing and like I brought these seven questions

01:33:02: yeah oh

01:33:04: i mean you know them all.

01:33:05: but people thought like that CRT is taught in most public high schools.

01:33:09: That was the most wrongly answered question, that it was established in the early eighties.

01:33:17: and then correct me if I'm wrong but in the survey said CRT says individual acts or laws are unlikely to change systems that were founded with racial principles.

01:33:32: Is there more on that?

01:33:33: That's a more complicated

01:33:35: question.

01:33:35: There wasn't survey.

01:33:36: yeah,

01:33:37: that's interesting really.

01:33:39: so individual level prejudice is not primarily the driver of Racial inequality.

01:33:48: So laws that try to ferret out decisions that were motivated by racial bias will only get halfway.

01:33:58: if that right.

01:33:59: my And the story I just told you about my Dean.

01:34:03: I don't think that he maintained that system of meritocratic hiring because he didn't like people, color women.

01:34:12: He's just thought it was legitimate.

01:34:15: It was neutral is the way they always did things and that was good enough.

01:34:19: so structured inequalities require a deeper level of interrogation, and that's what critical race theory tries to do.

01:34:29: Does CRT say many American institutions are founded on racist principles?

01:34:35: It does acknowledge the very Republic was founded upon racist principles—the idea of property in people.

01:34:47: You know you don't... People defined in terms argue against that being a racist principle.

01:34:56: And in case we were wondering, the Supreme Court later told us and Dred Scott people of African descent can never be citizens because they were enslaved.

01:35:08: and they were enslaved Because They Were Black.

01:35:10: so if you could enslave them because their black then it means That The Founders Never Intended For Them To Be Citizens.

01:35:18: I just go to the tape.

01:35:20: Does he ours?

01:35:21: CRTs say that many American institutions are set up to favor white Americans.

01:35:26: It says institutionalized disadvantage and advantage is built into our republic, so that's the example I just gave?

01:35:36: Exactly!

01:35:38: Does CRT, the survey asks... ...say that discriminating against White people is the only way to achieve equality?

01:35:46: No It does not say that it challenges.

01:35:50: What is discrimination against white people?

01:35:53: Does CRT saying, That White People Are Inherently Bad Or Evil?

01:36:00: There was the seventh

01:36:02: question How many... what do people say to that one?

01:36:04: Do you have The

01:36:07: Correct Answers?

01:36:07: Faults?

01:36:08: Yes But

01:36:08: how many people got it wrong?

01:36:09: Ninety-five percent of all people Got at least one wrong.

01:36:14: So let me say what this is a product of it.

01:36:16: that I think Is the real danger media?

01:36:21: Media.

01:36:22: so Here's how The far right has manipulated the mainstream media to produce outcomes like This.

01:36:31: they come up with something They have no.

01:36:35: They Have No Standards, No Requirements and No Bench Marts for affirming, site checking fact-checking nothing.

01:36:45: They just say what they want to say.

01:36:47: so here are nine things that they say about critical race theory.

01:36:52: then the mainstream media went once.

01:36:55: they yell it loud enough and often Enough So That It Becomes a Thing.

01:37:01: Mainstream Media Come And Report The Thing?

01:37:06: They Don't report What the strategy is, they don't do their own interrogation.

01:37:12: They don't Do Their Own Fact Checking.

01:37:15: The only fact Is That There Are People Who are Saying These Things About Critical Race Theory?

01:37:20: They Won'T Tell You Who The People Are!

01:37:23: They Won't Tell You...They Won't Even Interview People Like Me.

01:37:26: In Fact I've Had A Couple Of Reporters Tell me that They Were Doing Stories On Critical Race theory.

01:37:38: they were able to interview the critics of Critical Race Theory, who are basically saying these things.

01:37:46: But when they wanted to interview those of us that do Critical Race theory there's like no we don't need know what they say.

01:37:52: you know?

01:37:52: We know what their believe.

01:37:54: well how did they know about our belief?

01:37:56: and other than hearing the distortions in thinking this story is a bout so we dont get actually be agents.

01:38:06: That has been so effective that a few years ago when the College Board, this is an academic testing association that created and advanced placement African American Studies module.

01:38:23: Did all of these research try to figure out what are common themes in african-american studies across country students need know?

01:38:32: In order get credit for those courses.

01:38:36: Intersectionality was one of these ideas.

01:38:39: Ron DeSantis had a fit about including intersectionality in this course, said that if intersectionality and other ideas like queer theory structural racism were part of this course he wouldn't allow it to be taught.

01:38:55: in Florida.

01:38:57: the college board ended up negotiating with DeSantes on The Florida Board Of Education and took intersectionality out of the required texts.

01:39:10: Rather than simply saying political pressure, you know sorry we had to do it which of course people who bend the knee rarely confess that they were just being cowardly ended up saying in The New York Times that intersectionality has been so distorted that was no longer useful.

01:39:29: So thats why they weren't teaching it.

01:39:31: Talk about a hecklers veto.

01:39:35: That's the strategy that The Right Wing has used against a whole range of ideas.

01:39:40: They tried it out, it worked to that degree.

01:39:44: so now you see repeatedly they'll get a hold to an idea and yell about it.

01:39:51: It doesn't matter what the truth is or how effective their ideas are.

01:39:56: And I will say one of those wonderful things.

01:39:58: being on tour this was my third country.

01:40:02: Everywhere I go, people are telling me how they've used intersectionality in their dissertations or in there Practices and the service provisions that they do in their advocacy.

01:40:13: The college board didn't do a survey to decide if these ideas were no longer effective.

01:40:19: They just bowed to the hecklers.

01:40:22: That is undermining Our democracy, heck.

01:40:26: Democracy has been subject to the right wing assault.

01:40:29: You don't see people simply saying we're not going use that word anymore because The Right Wing doesn't like it.

01:40:35: Eventually We might See That Happen But This Is The Process That We Have To Be Able To Call Out And Stop Before We Do Lose More Of The Ideas That Are Important To Us.

01:40:47: As We Talk About Why The Rich People Buy Legacy media because like that's

01:40:53: why they're doing and

01:40:53: you can repeat the lie often

01:40:56: enough

01:40:57: Becomes true.

01:40:58: I have a few more questions Concerning intersectionality and CRT.

01:41:02: we don't have a lot of time so let's keep it short and simple.

01:41:07: was wondering which of your maybe early assumptions about crt Would you revise or refine most today?

01:41:18: No,

01:41:21: what do you see there greatest risk?

01:41:23: that intersectionality is being used against its original critical purpose.

01:41:29: Distorting it as identity politics on steroids?

01:41:33: Are there cases in which like colorblindness, I mean... Like in Texas people are not... I'm not racist!

01:41:40: You know..I don't see race and all this other case in which color blindness can be strategically Useful.

01:41:49: or is it you have a like fundamentally anonymously misleading?

01:41:53: It's well both things are true color blindness as it has been conceptualized and used in American politics today.

01:42:04: Mm-hmm Is an ideology that has facilitated the dismantling of race conscious civil rights laws and practices that pay attention to racial exclusion in order to dismantle it.

01:42:23: So color blindness is not definitionally the embodiment of equity and inclusion.

01:42:34: Exhibit A, The Grandfather Class.

01:42:38: The Grandfather Clause was a way that legislators in the nineteenth century attempted to disenfranchise black men from voting.

01:42:48: How did it work?

01:42:49: In a colorblind way, It said if your grandfather wasn't able to vote you can't vote.

01:42:57: Well they're doing this in the eighteen seventies their grandfathers.

01:43:03: If you were Black we are enslaved people.

01:43:07: So this is a colorblind law.

01:43:11: If you think color blindness, it's the way to protect against discrimination then you have to account for that fact.

01:43:18: people can use social and historical facts Social and historical attributes And still create racial harm while being color blind.

01:43:31: so if you want quick example just thank grandfather class.

01:43:36: colorblind, horribly discriminatory.

01:43:40: Which tension is hardly resolved?

01:43:43: The one between law and social transformation or the one between identity politics and universalist solidarity?

01:43:54: I'd say...I'd say the former because identity politics acknowledged that the structures we live in make a difference, and what happens to us.

01:44:11: So if you understand identity politics correctly... That's describing the social terrain!

01:44:18: It is not the way identity politics have been distorted into just recognizing my identity because of who I am.

01:44:26: Identity politics have never been about that.

01:44:30: It's about paying attention to how various structures impact people based on who they had been made to be within the society.

01:44:39: we live in intersectionality, my initial articulation of intersectionality dealt with employment discrimination in a context where the employer had structure for black workers could be and women workers.

01:44:56: It was that structure meant that people who were Black didn't have a place to be their identity made In that structure.

01:45:12: So it's not about what was in their heads, It is how the structures position them to absorb two different forms of discrimination Because

01:45:22: law didn't recognize this as discrimination because there were black men and white women.

01:45:28: Exactly

01:45:30: Where does structural critique end?

01:45:34: How do you draw that line today?

01:45:35: I draw that when we have place in a moment where the structures aren't so clearly the product of past discrimination and existing exclusion.

01:45:50: I don't think... personal responsibility is nothing.

01:45:53: That would not be the way I was raised, that would not anything you can find in critical race theory.

01:46:00: but it will say if your first moment when look at masses of women and people color working class people predictably generation after having the same life chances.

01:46:16: To begin with personal responsibility is to essentially say that it is in the future and nature of who they are, that these patterns continue rather than the patterns that at one point were clearly articulated as a way and means of keeping people where they are.

01:46:35: so if I'm gonna choose one or the other i'm clearly going to choose.

01:46:44: We are inherently equal, but we have been made unequal.

01:46:49: That's where I'm gonna start.

01:46:51: Which non-American experiences of racism has most challenged you over thinking?

01:46:58: Ooh!

01:46:59: Most challenged me.

01:47:03: Hmm... Well..I've some experiences that i talk about in the book.

01:47:10: You know, there was an occasion I was here at a conference in Germany and a child saw me.

01:47:17: And he was very afraid... ...and called my name.

01:47:24: All of my colleagues were very uncomfortable about it and laughed it off.

01:47:31: Here's what is challenging—I wasn't hurt by that and it didn't get in my way, but it made clear that for us to have a real productive conversation about the issues I write about was going be really uncomfortable.

01:47:49: in which the divisions that were kind of unspoken sort of popped up and made it clear, there are still chasms of experiences we're trying to reach across.

01:48:05: That was always going be present at some extent or

01:48:10: another.".

01:48:13: And is capitalism the final boss?

01:48:17: Well,

01:48:18: it is...

01:48:19: Yeah.

01:48:20: I'm not a unilateral person!

01:48:22: I am NOT a grand theory person but i will say that capitalism as it has been expressed through colonialism anti-blackness enslavement and now through the tremendous maldistribution of resources an opportunity underwrite and reflect ongoing discriminatory conditions that people of color, descendants of colonialism... ...and others are subject to.

01:48:58: That makes it such a boss.

01:49:00: we can't make significant progress without accounting for

01:49:03: that.".

01:49:04: I asked if you've got many people who fight the good fight when it comes to anti-racism but they're like, ah!

01:49:12: I'm broke Capitalism.

01:49:14: And I will say many people who fight the good fight against capitalism, we'll say in it all work out.

01:49:20: racism and patriarchy will all workout if you deal with capitalism and there is very little evidence of that.

01:49:28: Kimberley thank You so much.

01:49:29: It was fun Thank-you.

01:49:30: Please come back at some point.

01:49:31: How how Many times do you Come to Europe?

01:49:34: A couple Times a year

01:49:35: really yeah So Much more.

01:49:36: Yeah please come Back at something.

01:49:38: We'll Do

01:49:38: it.

01:49:39: Thanks so much for Watching and See you next time.