#822 - Economist Clara Mattei on the history of austerity politics

00:00:00: All right, new episode of Young and Naive.

00:00:02: I have a new guest.

00:00:03: who are you?

00:00:04: My name is Clara Matei.

00:00:06: uh i am a professor of economics and also the founder of The Free Forum for Real Economic Emancipation in Mouthful.

00:00:15: um it's an organization that is trying to bring critical knowledge empowering knowledge outside of academia make a more humane economy, let's say.

00:00:26: All right what brings you to Berlin?

00:00:29: I'm here in Berlin for this price that the SPD is giving me.

00:00:35: The SPD which is interesting because it's which I learned how to say in German, and now I forgot.

00:00:44: And haven't practiced.

00:00:45: maybe you can say it.

00:00:46: The

00:00:47: Ordnung des Kapitals?

00:00:48: Thank-you!

00:00:49: At least avoid embarrassment.

00:00:51: yes so for that reason... It's

00:00:54: a ABET foundation.

00:00:55: Yes exactly and i should know the name of the price and now i can't say that either..

00:01:01: I think ABET Foundation would be like oh we're not entirely social democratic But it's like basically the party foundation.

00:01:09: Yes,

00:01:10: will you accept a prize?

00:01:13: I will.

00:01:13: yes sure why not?

00:01:14: maybe You're like well your social democrats in name only.

00:01:18: uh i refuse.

00:01:21: That's

00:01:21: funny.

00:01:21: Like every twenty years there is some famous person in Germany who was like ah I refuse to price

00:01:27: interesting.

00:01:27: Well, I mean It's a price for economic publishing and so I'm glad that they are considering ideas outside of the mainstream, I think it's more than ever needed today that we explore critical ideas.

00:01:39: And I think the fact they've read the book and thought it was worthwhile is a good sign of needing to open up the mind.

00:01:47: two different perspectives.

00:01:50: You don't think the mind has opened enough yet?

00:01:53: No

00:01:54: Why not?

00:01:56: Because historical processes right now Show that the way in which we still justify an economy.

00:02:07: That is literally murdering Much of the population of the global south as some and impoverishing The majority over the population in the Global North Is.

00:02:18: um, it's completely unsustainable at this point.

00:02:21: But you know big academics the elite are still propelling narratives that kind of try to justify the unjustifiable.

00:02:31: Maybe they would say well has been sustainable so far.

00:02:35: Well, that's because they don't look beyond the surface of their bubble.

00:02:40: And I think as people who are benefiting... You know?

00:02:45: ...I'm an academic and doing fine here doing well!

00:02:48: We have a duty to go beyond our little bubble just around us, there is serious desperation and anger.

00:02:59: And this is because of the capitalist capital order.

00:03:02: how I tried to call it too stressed that its a political order and thus theres nothing natural to it.

00:03:08: And thus we have kind of the duty to realize given that we've constructed the system We have space to rethink it and break through.

00:03:17: part of rethinking is look at history critically and realise there's associations in how to maintain the system intact require a lot of economic and political violence through austerity, and also fascisms.

00:03:30: And this is kind what capitalism needs protect itself.

00:03:37: So I think this is a strong debunking of the narrative that free market economy, it's somehow natural spontaneous given but if we step back and happens on its own what i try to say actually as opposite like system itself requires very coercive economic measures such as austerity in order break away any alternatives by keeping us disciplined through high levels of unemployment, though low social services.

00:04:08: So the support to the two pillars of capitalism wage labor and private property or the means a production is something that requires very strong state intervention.

00:04:19: And this what so-called market economy actually is.

00:04:24: There's nothing really optimal about these.

00:04:27: data show it clearly.

00:04:29: So do I understand correctly?

00:04:32: capitalism needs fascism to save itself?

00:04:35: Well, we can qualify by saying that one has to be attentive to the specific historical moments when it looks at.

00:04:45: But definitely you could say historically fascistic governments have been government that have propelled and protected economic growth and capital accumulation, an accumulation that of course is highly unequal.

00:05:01: And presupposes many losers?

00:05:04: For me what's important to stress is this capitalism working at its best!

00:05:08: I think it's something unfortunately missed in a lot.

00:05:13: left critique... The Left Critique always says we're seeing some form corruption, excessive financialization, monopoly… you know, neoliberalism.

00:05:29: Definitely it's all this but just the acceleration of very profound structural tendencies in our economic system that are showcasing how these systems should work for what it has to do.

00:05:46: The system is meant to propel the logic of profit, not fulfill the logic much more radical than the insight of saying, well maybe then we can you know control it change.

00:06:09: We can go back to a supposed golden age.

00:06:12: I think that as-of now with ecological catastrophe With the fact that You have twelve people owning more than four billion People right?

00:06:20: Now this are statistics and we Have two billion people who go hungry every night.

00:06:27: These are numbers That tell you while we need To really rethink how we conceptualize capitalism and that's what I've been doing so far.

00:06:36: So, capitalism is doing great right now?

00:06:39: For what supposed to be doing?

00:06:41: yes!

00:06:42: People are not going great.

00:06:44: This is the big difference,

00:06:45: right?

00:06:46: The economic system... Well if you look at the numbers on profits and profit margins.

00:06:53: they've never been so high.

00:06:55: there's a high accumulation up top.

00:06:58: So this system produces extreme accumulations of the top Extreme opportunities.

00:07:03: for course it has highly concentrated economic power But again antithesis of what economists called perfect competition.

00:07:18: What we're seeing today is the outcome, a real competition on the fact that actually historically in the war this economy not just metaphorically but even economically those who want to become big corporations and big asset managers have to eat out.

00:07:38: They're competitors, right?

00:07:39: This is what competition in the market.

00:07:42: We are stuck In real competition and there's no political Decision over What is produced on how it happens Is that anyone technically can produce goods and services And try to sell them.

00:07:56: but then There's a real competition in trying To actually attract market share.

00:08:01: Do It better than others.

00:08:03: How do you do this?

00:08:04: well You have by increasing the rate of exploitation, by cutting labor costs.

00:08:09: By increasing technology that can then substitute workers.

00:08:14: and this heavy concentration is really the outcome of competition in the market right?

00:08:22: So it's a very different logic than to say there's monopoly and there's competition And they're just like distinct qualitatively.

00:08:28: what I'm trying To Say Is actually That The Monopoly is the result of the forces of capitalism.

00:08:35: And that's why we need to rethink them.

00:08:39: Or just thinking, like if capitalism is doing great right now... Just look at the stock market because there seem to be an all-time highs so the stockholders are doing great!

00:08:57: Absolutely and people can't pay their bills.

00:09:00: it will create a political resentment.

00:09:04: but they can't pay their bills, but that price is going up.

00:09:08: It's actually being pocketed by the large corporations that control our energy

00:09:14: resources.".

00:09:15: So again it's really about breaking and what The Book of the Capital Order tries to do division of the whole.

00:09:28: The idea that the economy can be analyzed as a whole, and it's just like a technical thing—like an object to be observed and discussed.

00:09:39: What I try to say is that lens-of-the-whole is already extremely ideological... ...that tries to convince the losers in this system… That again are not losing because they're bad people or they're lazy!

00:09:51: They're LOSING because THE SYSTEM IS

00:09:54: MEANT!!!

00:09:55: to make them lose.

00:09:57: That's the analysis that The Vision of the Hole cannot see, what we need look is about... What are profits share and labor share?

00:10:07: If you look at so-called growth who actually pocketing it?

00:10:12: Is this profit or capitalists or workers?

00:10:17: Historically more and more GDP is pocketed by capital owners.

00:10:24: And again, this is part of what we could call the increase in exploitation.

00:10:30: that's actually measurable.

00:10:31: like this if you divide how much goes to profits and wages And this is actually a measure of how much we are exploited.

00:10:43: How much... This value that we're producing, it doesn't go to us!

00:10:49: It goes to very small elite.

00:10:52: You know, nineteen people in the last two years The Wall Street Journal told us have accumulated almost two trillion dollars.

00:11:00: Nineteen People and We Know That In The US the hub of so-called advanced capitalism.

00:11:08: We have seventy percent families who are financially insecure, meaning that they really can't make

00:11:14: it.".

00:11:16: and yet skates by time.

00:11:35: How do I know if i'm a loser?

00:11:45: Well, again the word loser already for us has kind of a subjective connotation or like negativity that is attributed to this subject.

00:12:00: You brought it up?

00:12:02: Yeah if we understand The Loser as not

00:12:04: within the system

00:12:05: right and I would definitely say That the majority of Us are losers even Those who make A lot Of money.

00:12:13: You know, if you look at a software engineer working for Google and knowing that he goes to work to finance the improvement of technology that is being sold today as really military in order to bomb schools or hospitals.

00:12:30: This person has lost his agency when they hear her go-to-work right?

00:12:35: The fact it's like... If your going to work then you will have to work on the bottom line Genocide's destruction around the world by the way not just in Palestine, also Sudan and now of course Lebanon.

00:12:50: The destruction is massive.

00:12:52: so That's a whole point.

00:12:54: Is that if we have money?

00:12:55: In our bank accounts And we also make good money maybe as professionals working may be in finance We're still losers in the sense that we are giving up our agency For the majority of today were working for someone else's bottom line and this bottom line is highly violent and destructive bottom line, unfortunately.

00:13:16: Minimally abstract at the reality very-very violent.

00:13:20: so that's a thing is you're not.

00:13:22: it's your loser now because you are bad person You our loser Because this system Is making you lose right?

00:13:29: So already we have to understand losing as Not something That We create for ourselves.

00:13:36: Who's The winner?

00:13:38: who's the Winner?

00:13:40: a very small minority actually of the population, right?

00:13:44: Actually... Very few people at

00:13:47: this point.

00:13:48: The person who employs software engineer Google or the people that own Google.

00:13:57: Who's the winner?

00:13:58: Yeah I guess absolutely!

00:14:00: The shareholders and it is highly impersonal asset managers, big financial institutions.

00:14:13: And so I think this is the point that it's just very few people.

00:14:18: It always more and more these abstract entities That trap us...and i want to say This!

00:14:24: Its not about pointing a finger To the loser of winners Is to understand The losers in winner participate In an economic system That is structurally upside down.

00:14:36: Its actually structurally putting a logic that is highly abstract before any extra economic principle or objective.

00:14:47: That could be the basic objective of feeding people, you know?

00:14:51: Already if want to get fed... on this planet, you're basically a revolutionary.

00:14:58: We have two billion people who are food insecure and this is not an accident.

00:15:03: again This how the system operates.

00:15:05: The Food Industry Is meant to sell the food To export where it's most profitable to be sold not to feed people, right?

00:15:15: And Brazil is a very good example of this.

00:15:18: A country that's actually the biggest one in agro-business and one of the biggest exporters of food in the world has one of most hungry population children who starve because the foods produced by these companies are being produced to sell abroad.

00:15:36: And this is why there's a lot of movements that are organizing to say, well the food should be common and it should organized democratically.

00:15:43: That's first basic element human dignity not for nothing.

00:15:48: thats what being taken away from population in Gaza.

00:15:52: right now we still don't have food entering.

00:15:55: This is very emblematic type priorities here.

00:16:00: I ask about losers or winners.

00:16:03: I understand you as in, like if wanna wake up people who don't realize they are losers.

00:16:09: Are

00:16:11: you a loser on this system?

00:16:14: Well...I think one has to be also very self-critical of how academics participate in the society.

00:16:23: Academics have...are you

00:16:25: being exploited?

00:16:26: well technically i am In that sense by

00:16:29: your university

00:16:30: If we look at how much money the university is making out of my course.

00:16:39: And in terms of the tuition, students pay right?

00:16:42: So tuitions in the United States now around if you're lucky seventy thousand dollars a year...

00:16:48: You work at University of Tulsa?

00:16:49: Now I'm at the University of Tulsa.

00:16:51: yes

00:16:51: What do your student's pay for tuition?

00:16:54: The tuition and again the University Of Tulsa.

00:16:56: not an exception anyway.

00:16:59: I think it's about seventy something thousand a year I believe.

00:17:03: And many of them come out with a devastating debt.

00:17:07: that then, of course makes them lose by definition because they're cogs of the machine in order to even escape basically indentured servitude.

00:17:18: and so if you sum the money The university makes out of the students at my classroom and what They pay me for that course Even If i'm well paid it's still You know there is Still large surplus doesn't go to me, it goes to the institution.

00:17:34: But I do think that point is here that academics and this part of what i discuss in The Capital Order Is how ideas especially coming from economists Even a moments That I discussed at moment after First World War right?

00:17:50: They focus on What happened After first world war In terms of enormous potential for alternatives that were happening heart of the capitalist West in Italy and Britain.

00:18:02: there are a lot of serious concrete alternative models on how to produce, distribute or live together that were being explored.

00:18:12: Of course after The First World War Great war killed almost twenty million people.

00:18:17: There was big upsurge understanding that capitalism leads to war, something that clearly we see today in a very acute form.

00:18:26: So in these moments of crisis of capitalism, we see that academics already then so already hundred years ago were playing it play key role in preventing social transformation and the reason they also do this is Good job security.

00:18:50: academics are not I mean again academics.

00:18:53: There's a tier.

00:18:54: there is people like me who are lucky enough to have gotten a full-time position with tenure.

00:18:59: then that's really the academic elite and That's the people who usually publish books get reward good awards, right?

00:19:08: And so the point here is that if you aren't in space You it's easy too Pretend through abstract models that the system is operating according to a Logic, that supposedly satisfies consumers.

00:19:26: you look at economists right mainstream economics.

00:19:28: That is the topic of my book like how mainstream economics Spends the majority of its time convincing us that the market is there to satisfy our needs right?

00:19:41: The opposite of what I'm saying.

00:19:43: It's convincing Us That Actually, the Market Is the most effective Mechanism To Increase Maximize Utility Of Economic Agents Being Consumers being Businesses Right.

00:19:56: so the idea is that the Market is instrumental to us, which is a complete upside down way of seeing things because the reality is that we are instrumental to the market.

00:20:05: And again, that the market requires The relation of exploitation That it's at its foundation.

00:20:12: So in this sense what?

00:20:13: We see is that historically economists and other academics have played a big role In Making up a world that doesn't exist but convincing people.

00:20:25: that's the actual World Allowing us to, for example think of ourselves as losers in a way that is actually our fault while we're losing it in the systemic sense.

00:20:39: But mainstream economics has been corrupted throughout history or have there always been its role?

00:20:51: I would say they've always been their roles absolutely and again For many reasons.

00:20:56: one is definitely the positionality thinks and writes, right?

00:21:00: In fact if you think and write from a position of extreme privilege You will have a tendency to stay at the very surface level by which you do not see again.

00:21:11: The exploitation...the violence..the extraction.

00:21:16: that happens historically And That's-that's the very origin of the economic system we live in itself.

00:21:24: I would expect from economists who know it some kind of science to study below the surface level.

00:21:33: Yeah,

00:21:33: well that happens very I would say almost never in academia unfortunately and any conom in this discipline of economics you know what we students learn when they take economics classes is the so-called neoclassical economics.

00:21:49: Neoclassic economics, again has a history.

00:21:51: that's very dark history which I discuss in my book The Capital Order and it's really trying hard.

00:21:59: this why looking at history matters?

00:22:01: because you see how these economists tried to go from some knowledge that was actually empowering Those losers was actually empowering those workers because it was saying, listen the value is coming out of you.

00:22:21: It's coming out your unpaid labor.

00:22:24: Its' coming our activity during their work day.

00:22:26: You are producing that value That has been accumulated at top and its being taken away from you.

00:22:32: So this theory The so called Labor Theory Of Value Is all based on a very political concept not allowing those people that are putting in their bodies to actually get, have a say on what they produce and keep the output of their work.

00:22:50: This was an idea behind a lot like radical economic analysis circulating already in the eighteen hundreds.

00:22:59: then it was really refurbishing after World War.

00:23:03: I someone like Antonio Gramsci who is protagonist in my work, he was organizing the factory council movement.

00:23:11: In Italy and they were saying we are going to take back production on our own hands collectively.

00:23:18: And this was strengthened by the labor theory of value By say okay This is what science tells you.

00:23:23: that actually thats how world happens under capitalism.

00:23:28: So in a sense when these economists the economists are very, very scared in that historical moment.

00:23:36: They're convinced capitalism is collapsing and they say it right?

00:23:39: So if you read The Economist, The Times...the big newspapers in nineteen-nineteen It's crazy because everyone's convinced capitalism Is about to be over.

00:23:51: You imagine we had the Soviets had risen up In Russia.

00:23:56: there was a whole bunch of revolutionary charges everywhere and the elitist observing terrified saying, well I guess this is it.

00:24:07: And i'm not exaggerating.

00:24:09: It's enough to actually go back and look at these newspapers article then what you see Is that economists all of a sudden take on?

00:24:15: A very prominent role At The European level.

00:24:18: the Very first conference in the very First international Conference was held In nineteen twenty in Brussels and for the first time academics were brought To the table to say Well What should we do like?

00:24:30: Literally, the social order is collapsing.

00:24:32: And again, capitalism is based on this political order.

00:24:34: so if that collapses... The whole system collapses.

00:24:37: what do we do?

00:24:38: These economists come up with very clear recipes.

00:24:44: That are current day austerity policies that have been applied basically for more than a hundred years I would say With little breaks in the middle and not only with the policies We can get into but also these ideas.

00:24:59: No more labor theory value.

00:25:00: that is just wrong.

00:25:02: What we see, it's not the worker who produces value.

00:25:06: It actually all thanks to this saver investor.

00:25:08: This virtuous individual is capable because of their rationality, the capacity to wait.

00:25:18: To abstain.

00:25:19: they have accumulated resources through their savings and thus they employ the workers.

00:25:26: And that's what they're doing.

00:25:27: Is actually being very nice, employing other people.

00:25:30: Nice!

00:25:31: What they pocket it not as a result of exploitation.

00:25:36: It was an example for them.

00:25:40: They're justified in being rich because it's the outcome of their hard and rational behavior.

00:25:49: Trick, right?

00:25:50: If you abolish the labor to your value and say actually it's an entrepreneur who counts not a worker.

00:25:55: The workers are just some lazy person.

00:25:58: if he is lucky someone else will employ.

00:25:59: Not that the person who ideates ideas come from the entrepreneur.

00:26:04: And there isn't conflict in these models.

00:26:08: So mainstream economics abolishes the concept of class-conflict.

00:26:11: There is no more conflict.

00:26:12: what we see as harmony You see actually people getting along really well, you see everyone optimizing right?

00:26:18: Everyone gaining.

00:26:20: there are no losers.

00:26:21: That's what it that way.

00:26:21: Right they're no losers.

00:26:23: every one is winning and They're winning in a hierarchical way but it's because of what you put into the production process.

00:26:31: So then I'll shut up.

00:26:32: But I want to say this if you look at the models It's really about The returns to what you contribute.

00:26:40: So the worker gets paid according to the so-called marginal productivity of their labor, right?

00:26:47: They put in work and they're getting paid exactly what they contributed!

00:26:52: Same for the supposed entrepreneurs—they are getting paid putting into the production process.

00:27:01: So in this world, everything is good and fair.

00:27:03: everyone is getting exactly what they're supposed to according to their contribution And there's no such thing as exploitation right?

00:27:10: No one is taking from anyone else.

00:27:12: so you see here The change of lens through which we look at the word.

00:27:19: There are no economic injustice stuff for radical crazies that just like exaggerate.

00:27:26: If you really look seriously, the world is just unfair.

00:27:30: and in this way You have created a subaltern passive consenting population That learns this type of theory And you know thinks it's objective and scientific and so kind of like internalizes It with The consequence that if you had little money you think its your fault right?

00:27:50: Was like Marx theories, was it considered science back then?

00:27:55: Cause what do you describe as the... Marks.

00:27:59: Well the labor theory of value let's say is even before Marx I mean marks definitely- Like

00:28:04: he wrote it down

00:28:05: right.

00:28:06: Yes we can see that Labor Theory of Value.

00:28:08: actually even Adams Smith so The Founding Father Of Western Political Economy kind have had thought about It from Adam Smith, that was refined by David Ricardo.

00:28:20: And then Marx takes on the labor theory of value for sure.

00:28:24: and The important thing about Marx is that he really says the labor-theor value, it's not a natural law.

00:28:31: It doesn't happen in every society of this world... ...it happens under capitalism which has very specific system That requires again degree of extraction of resources Of making everybody market dependent right?

00:28:47: So this is big break from pre capitalist societies.

00:28:51: Is now the market an extra, something that we use to kind of exchange some goods.

00:28:59: The market becomes the way we reproduce ourselves because We've lost access To our means of subsistence.

00:29:06: right and this is not me saying it Of course It's if you look at the tradition of someone like Ellen Minskyan Wood who was An amazing writer.

00:29:14: she has this book called the origins of capitalism And all she explains Is that?

00:29:19: You know historians have capitalism have imagined that capitalism really had no end.

00:29:25: Because they just thought capitalism was an increase of exchange, right?

00:29:28: If you think about capitalism as an increase in exchange between people then what we say today?

00:29:34: Wall Street is kind more refined version and the ancient Romans or the Ancient Greeks who were already exchanging.

00:29:44: And so thats actually how economic historians read capitalism, they say well look.

00:29:49: They just show you a GDP growth and then it's like markets getting more refined.

00:29:53: this is what capitalism is And someone like Ellen Wood says in the narrative there are no origins because we've always been capitalist.

00:30:01: basically Capitalism was natural intrinsic feature of ourselves, we've just improved in being capitalist.

00:30:09: This is what she calls the theory of the origins of capitalism.

00:30:13: that's based on exchange and commerce which is highly problematic because in a Marxian sense they would say no actually there was break.

00:30:25: In this certain moment people were excluded from their means.

00:30:30: subsistence privatization is a massive component of how capitalism starts.

00:30:36: And once they're excluded, then people have no option but to go work for wage because everything they need is now something that needs to buy.

00:30:45: and so you see the market becomes actually the way in which we reproduce ourselves and capital is accumulated.

00:30:53: Sorry I went on around here Just as just say... You

00:30:57: are big fan of mainstream economics.

00:31:00: Yeah, and it was just to say that Marx actually like refines the labor theory about they saying It's not a universal law.

00:31:05: Its specific to capitalism And it requires kind of a very violent break from previous societies.

00:31:12: Let let us talk about you for a minute.

00:31:16: You're from Italy, right?

00:31:18: Yes

00:31:18: born in nineteen eighty

00:31:20: eight.

00:31:20: What

00:31:20: where?

00:31:20: from Italy?

00:31:21: well technically I was born In the United States but i am Italian.

00:31:24: yes So you

00:31:28: are also an American citizen.

00:31:29: yes so that's how i still pass The frontier.

00:31:33: Well, I don't know now because they're taking your... They didn't even look at you passport anymore.

00:31:38: At the border in US?

00:31:40: I haven't

00:31:41: been for a while!

00:31:42: They use technology to check points that have developed places like Palestine and directly put lasers into their eyes so people can see everything about them.

00:31:56: So we'll see how long it will take.

00:31:58: Why were you born there?

00:32:00: And because my parents were studying, they were doing a master's there.

00:32:04: In... like economics as well?

00:32:06: No in law!

00:32:08: So they became judges or attorneys?

00:32:11: Professors of Law

00:32:13: Really?!

00:32:14: I'm telling you the privilege is something that you get from when your born.

00:32:20: and then you guys move back to Italy.

00:32:23: Yes, I grew up a little back and forth between Italy and the

00:32:27: U.S.,

00:32:28: because my father was kind of teaching both places.

00:32:31: so it was interesting... Because in the eighties there's still a lot of idealization from American society to the American dream.

00:32:40: And being young growing up into the US you know?

00:32:44: In the Bay Area already There are a lot homeless people on street.

00:32:50: When I went back to Italy, everybody was like oh the United States what a great progressive society.

00:32:56: If you live there and kind of normalised homelessness.

00:32:58: To that point when my friend came to Turin looked around said where are homeless people?

00:33:03: And i thought well it's not just a feature or city necessarily to have homeless people around.

00:33:09: So growing up both places allowed me get out from the myth that US is an ideal society.

00:33:20: But because like Americans thought so who thought it's an ideal society?

00:33:26: Well, I think at least in Italy growing up and the eighties and nineties definitely that rhetoric.

00:33:32: The idea you know... ...the US was still seen as-I think now things have changed drastically really in the last couple of years with what's happening in the Middle East has really, especially for the young generations.

00:33:47: Has very much changed the vision of The United States.

00:33:50: but I think In the nineties there was still a lot of Yeah kind of Idealization that came out of how the US was portraying itself and how economists again portrayed the American society.

00:34:06: And so i think Again, first-hand experience is the way out of ideological traps.

00:34:13: And this is true for any discipline that you need to concretely experience reality in order to have theory that can be transformational anyway.

00:34:25: So where was it more fun going with school too?

00:34:29: In California or Italy?

00:34:31: Turin?

00:34:31: right

00:34:33: Yes I moved around in Italy quite a bit.

00:34:36: All this moving

00:34:37: A lot of moving, I'm still displaced.

00:34:39: I moved to Tulsa from New York and was at the new school... What were

00:34:44: your parents fleeing?

00:34:49: Shacing

00:34:49: money or what?

00:34:50: No this is me also constantly changing jobs right now.

00:34:53: but um..I moved a bit.

00:34:55: you know i was teaching up in new school.

00:34:57: then went to Tulso Clouoma where we have these really interesting project on the ground that I'm very proud of, TheFreeFreeForum.org is a website if people are interested in which we're really bringing knowledge to... To the general public through an assembly-based organization That has People directly take charge Of what they want to learn.

00:35:20: How?

00:35:21: They wanna learn.

00:35:22: And how do you use this Knowledge to activate spaces To break with market dependence On the ground?

00:35:28: Why were you moving so much?

00:35:30: Why?

00:35:32: As a child, yeah.

00:35:34: Yeah!

00:35:35: Well as I was moving because my parents also like were...

00:35:39: Why did they move so much?

00:35:41: They just got different job as professors the university professors in Italy between one job and another.

00:35:47: but it's just once they moved.

00:35:48: So i was in Trento until i was twelve.

00:35:51: This is..I don't know how interesting this is But then i moved to Turin

00:35:57: to my guests about their biography.

00:35:59: Okay, and then from Turin I did my university in Pavia... ...I was also in Cambridge for a bit.. ..and that i did my PhD in Pisa.

00:36:08: And Then I Was Hired In New York Where I Thought At The New School For Almost Ten Years In The Economics Department Which Was Very Informative Experience move away from, I think the closed circle world in which a lot of also lefty academics are.

00:36:35: And that's why i'm trying to really not just me.

00:36:39: and now it's a collective project...I kind have had tried to initiate it.

00:36:42: we've been flyering a lot in Tulsa through flyers to reach people who are living the violence of this system and want to understand why this is happening?

00:36:54: It's very difficult to find spaces for actual explanation that is empowering and not disempowering, going back to the different lenses that economists have.

00:37:04: And so we're doing.

00:37:06: currently it's growing.

00:37:08: So The Free Free Forum is a space which is actually multiplying.

00:37:13: now We are gonna try if can see other chapters in places starting from Bishop Stratford in the UK, we're having an assembly there.

00:37:24: Anyway so whoever is interested in learning more they can go to our website and actually see if we can organize together.

00:37:31: You mentioned it a few times now.

00:37:33: Were you a lowly child?

00:37:35: No I had my sister and brother.

00:37:40: Did they become professors as well like your parents or you?

00:37:43: no

00:37:46: Was important for your parents too good at school

00:37:52: Feels like a therapy session.

00:37:54: It was more important for me, I would say because... Because I think- Were

00:38:06: you an ambitious child?

00:38:10: Studying as kind of this massive like duty imposed from this fact, it was completely irrational and absurd.

00:38:17: And I'm just saying that my mentality is always given that i was lucky you know...I had a comfortable position in society with respect to many other children growing up in difficult conditions.

00:38:32: So I thought like me studying was a way that i could contribute to kind of making society better place.

00:38:38: I had this a lot already from early on in my high school years, so I would say I was very curious and active all ready.

00:38:45: then.

00:38:48: What politicized you as student?

00:38:53: Like Iraq war was

00:38:55: well, I would say the war in Lebanon Was a really big moment for me The War of two thousand and one.

00:39:03: I believe there's been so many wars in Lebanon but i mean But

00:39:08: why live on

00:39:10: it?

00:39:10: Just remember reading a lot of the news when I was, and just thinking how absurd it was that like you know.

00:39:19: The whole Western world was supporting the destruction very-very poor people who had.

00:39:25: you know Lebanon has the biggest population refugees from Palestine.

00:39:29: It's as a state that has been collapsing for years because of austerity policies.

00:39:34: so also they.

00:39:36: And That Was You Know the hub Of?

00:39:38: You know western civilization if you Like.

00:39:40: you know Galilee like.

00:39:41: really then the origins of all that big, sacred text is in an area that was flourishing economically.

00:39:49: All their religions were like getting along and it's a very syncretic space before you know... The Big Western imposition on the borders in nineteen seventeen nineteen eighteen.

00:40:02: so the French, the Brits coming in kind deciding for everyone else

00:40:07: You already knew about when your twelve or thirteen years.

00:40:09: No, I started getting very curious about it though.

00:40:34: create some beliefs and, you know the different again perspectives.

00:40:39: And so yeah.

00:40:40: So I just started getting very curious about that history because of what i was seeing.

00:40:46: That was kind of outrageous to me

00:40:47: Since you mentioned your childhood.

00:40:49: we talked about poverty earlier.

00:40:51: like did you experience Poverty through your friend's eyes when were young?

00:40:59: Or Did You have also just

00:41:01: friends?

00:41:02: No!

00:41:03: I mean thats a good thing.

00:41:05: you know, again having experienced public schools in the

00:41:07: U.S.,

00:41:08: is that... In Berkeley we had I was at a public school there and We have good fifty percent of kids coming from Oakland.

00:41:17: And Oakland Is You Know A place where There's a lot of poverty Especially for black population?

00:41:24: How racism is really intrinsic to The history and structure American Capitalism.

00:41:32: So i would say had class, I remember having a drama class with the girl who told me well you know i have a really big heart disease but my family can't afford to like give me an operation so...I probably won't survive.

00:41:51: Like actually she told that the drama class everyone was supposed talk about themselves and this is her kind of intervention.

00:41:58: So there's kinda stuff in which no one has health care is not something A lot of people have at their disposal.

00:42:09: Yeah, a lot of kids that were eating the only meal in school... That's very common in the United States.

00:42:16: Did

00:42:16: you go to public schools in Italy as well?

00:42:18: How was it compared with the US?

00:42:24: In Italy Public Schools are considered better than private schools

00:42:27: Really?!

00:42:28: Yes absolutely.

00:42:29: In Italy, if you go to a private school... I mean it's changing now of course.

00:42:33: The nineties when i was in school If you went to private schools because you were kind of dumb and needed to pay To actually earn your grades Really?

00:42:42: Absolutely So.

00:42:44: in Italy we like the public school system with all its problems.

00:42:48: Now I just interviewed for documentary about trajectory of Italian public schools and, of course how much it has been dismantled then.

00:42:56: How much was actually fought for in the seventies?

00:42:58: That's a big social fight to actually subsidize give more money to public school and hire teachers.

00:43:05: so you know political struggle didn't just happen because the lighten elite in this state wanted.

00:43:12: It was part of the class struggle in Italy, in the seventies especially.

00:43:16: But then it started getting defunded while we were funding other military projects.

00:43:23: but so... The point is that what I want to say?

00:43:26: Yeah!

00:43:26: So public schools in Italy are considered much better and they're very good.

00:43:30: And thats why i was lucky also.. I went to a public university didn't have debt pay which is different from my students.

00:43:37: That's actually why im going be moving into the University of New York City University, John Jay College.

00:43:47: I'm going to be starting teaching there in a year from now.

00:43:49: Oh

00:43:49: you're leaving Ohio?

00:43:51: Tulsa

00:43:51: Oklahoma.

00:43:52: Tulsa, Oklahoma...I am not

00:43:54: leaving it already!

00:43:59: We are expanding the free and i will continue working with The Assembly.

00:44:06: But I want to go work for a public institution because I think universities that are private, really killing the future generations in the United States.

00:44:17: And so this is very good opportunity... ...to be more coherent!

00:44:24: Why not go like an Italian Public University or something?

00:44:30: I would love too.

00:44:31: The thing about it Italian public universities is that in the austerity modality, which you know... The majority of countries are right now.

00:44:42: It's not easy to find a position at an Italian university.

00:44:46: so it's like I left because i wanted too but It was easier to get hired in the US because you know, I got my PhD on the high day of austerity.

00:44:58: In Italy right?

00:44:59: it was what...it was twenty sixteen so the period of Mario Monti had just passed and So i went where i got my job.

00:45:09: let's put that way..I would like To come back.

00:45:11: maybe will happen in The future but its not That easy.

00:45:18: When You graduated from school Like did your parents Ask you like oh, maybe you study law.

00:45:28: I wanted to study law but they really highly recommended not too

00:45:32: Why?

00:45:33: You could have found it dynasty or something

00:45:36: exactly.

00:45:38: Exactly.

00:45:38: that's exactly why then anything i would've done especially in how Italian academia works.

00:45:43: They what had said.

00:45:44: It was because of my parents and i kind of

00:45:46: didn't want To be a nipple baby.

00:45:48: yeah exactly i preferred making My own Bones.

00:45:52: How did you get into economics?

00:45:54: That's a good question.

00:45:56: I studied philosophy five years And yeah, BA and MA in Philosophy.

00:46:00: so basically a philosopher

00:46:02: Yes.

00:46:03: That's what a lot of my colleagues who don't like the type of economics I do tell me, right?

00:46:08: Economic

00:46:09: philosophy...

00:46:10: If you think about it Marx was philosopher at the end of the day.

00:46:14: The point is that we need to study the economy and understand how society at large works.

00:46:20: So i was studying philosophy then had really good professor In

00:46:23: Italy or US?

00:46:24: No

00:46:24: in Italy.

00:46:26: I stayed in Pavia.

00:46:27: I did it in Italy, and I was studying...I did a course on the history of economic thought- I was learning about how different theories were intersecting with one another.

00:46:36: I thought economics could be cool!

00:46:41: date on poverty.

00:46:42: And as I told you, it was kind of sensitive to these topics.

00:46:46: and then i had an opportunity to apply for a PhD in economics.

00:46:50: my professor is like highly recommended because It Was easier To find A job if You Had a PhD In Economics.

00:46:55: there's no Jobs Available For PhDs in Philosophy.

00:46:58: Wait did he study philosophy for five Years?

00:47:00: Then you could do a Phd in economics without

00:47:04: Yes

00:47:04: Having Studied

00:47:05: yes but that's something That Is very much the US model is that you don't need necessarily to have... Usually, the master's included in the PhD.

00:47:21: You can come from other disciplines as well.

00:47:23: so in Santana and Pisa I was there And i did my PhD in economics there but I didn't really fit it because I studied all the rigorous math and statistics But there was no depth whatsoever in any of these models.

00:47:40: And I started questioning, why do this model work the way they do?

00:47:45: Then I start looking at economic history and discovering the relation between fascism and liberals... ...and austerity.

00:47:53: that is written on the book we are discussing today The Capital Order.

00:48:01: When you question what were being taught at university.

00:48:07: Like, how did your professors react?

00:48:11: They told me I wasn't an economist that they didn't really fit into the discipline.

00:48:18: That's not a good argument.

00:48:20: Well...that's unfortunately how economics mainstream economics defends itself.

00:48:25: Anything that is little bit critical or historical.

00:48:29: it just like you're doing.

00:48:30: what are we doing?

00:48:31: sociology What do..like thats not the science that were interested in.

00:48:37: That's why I didn't really get a job in Italy.

00:48:41: What was doing wasn't something my professors liked.

00:48:44: A lot of people that i studied with stayed, but they conformed to the type of analysis considered scientific and thought it was very depressing actually had huge breakdown when I was doing my PhD.

00:49:01: After I passed all the exams, you know...I made it!

00:49:03: That's only one who did not study Econ for five years before doing that PhD.

00:49:07: so we're four of us and three classmates or guys who had done five years of Econ and they were still having a hard time.

00:49:15: So like..for me i have to study A LOT Like studying all the time.

00:49:21: I was dreaming about math.

00:49:24: All I was dreaming about were numbers at a certain point.

00:49:26: That's going crazy!

00:49:27: Sorry!

00:49:28: It was horrible, the worst years of my life.

00:49:30: but after i've done it... After I did it..I passed all the exams and made them.

00:49:36: It was mostly like just pride?

00:49:40: I need to show that I will make it even if they really wanted me fail.

00:49:46: because what is this philosopher doing?

00:49:48: But anyway, I made it through but then had to pick a research topic because the PhD is also about research.

00:49:55: after you do the exams and study coursework.

00:49:59: And that's when i have huge breakdown And I spent a summer crying as like, I don't know what I'm doing.

00:50:05: I hate this.

00:50:06: I'll never find my

00:50:07: way.".

00:50:08: I started fighting with my dad kind of accusing him for no reason saying that was his fault and he had pushed me to do it.

00:50:19: Anyway, I was still young.

00:50:20: And anyway so i cried in front of a professor at Berkeley and asked the Professor of Economics to meet me To kind of discuss what I could do In terms of research... ...and I was so desperate.. ..I cried infront him and he must have thought that it's completely crazy.

00:50:34: How did

00:50:34: you react?

00:50:36: Very American like actually hes not even.. I think he is Belgian!

00:50:39: I don't know if you remember.

00:50:41: So he kinda looked shocked and tried to maintain his.

00:50:49: yeah Anyway.

00:50:50: Could you help?

00:50:52: No, what happened was?

00:50:54: I kind of said well okay now at least...I have to at least defend my thesis.

00:50:59: and i made it halfway there- I can't give up!

00:51:03: And then I found an article.. I just was roaming the libraries to see what could be potentially something that I could research on…and I found a article explaining fascist economic policies.

00:51:17: And I thought, huh interesting.

00:51:19: I started reading and they were exactly the same.

00:51:22: policies that we're on the newspapers like constantly right had been kind of The daily bread of our media privatizations cuts in social expenditures Wage cuts you know all what?

00:51:38: We know is austerity right increasing it in safeguarding them money and monetary value.

00:51:44: so by increasing interest rates all the austerity package that I study in the book, i saw it kind of... ...in the fascist economic policies.

00:51:55: In the twenties.

00:51:55: and i thought- That's interesting!

00:51:57: And then i saw no one had researched it.

00:51:59: So thats something really interesting is to see that One thing.

00:52:02: so there are all these academics around.

00:52:04: There must be you know No more space to study history because everything must already been studied.

00:52:09: You would be surprised.

00:52:11: How did your professor react when you brought up fascism?

00:52:16: They were, they...

00:52:18: Were the confused?

00:52:21: They just wanted me to do a lot of macroeconomic comparison on numbers and data sets.

00:52:28: So why don't you study the whole world!

00:52:31: And like it was, you know, economists really have no sense in history it doesn't matter, so you can kind of like abstract universally.

00:52:40: And I was like no i really want to study this specific period in this specific country.

00:52:45: and they're like yeah again... well we don't care about archival work!

00:52:50: Like what are you doing?

00:52:52: But y'know..I continued- I found some other professors that adopted me who were more historically inclined historians have ideas as they weren't doing the rigorous econonomic analysis.

00:53:04: And I wrote my dissertation and then got out of there because Anwar Sheikh, who's an amazing economist just retired from the new school was a first person.

00:53:24: The new school was one of the few places where you could actually get a PhD and study alternative economic frameworks.

00:53:32: And so I found out about it late in my My time as a PhD student.

00:53:37: when what's that?

00:53:39: That was ten

00:53:39: years ago,

00:53:40: that was like yeah, that Was probably twenty-twenty fourteen.

00:53:44: i found out About It and So i was like can i come As A visiting Scholar Can i write my dissertation There?

00:53:50: and Anwar was the first Person ever heard take my work seriously.

00:53:54: Like he actually responded to my email saying, because I had attached a couple of chapters on my dissertation and he said this is very important work you're doing You should come in give talk at the new school.

00:54:06: And i was like...I couldn't believe his response.

00:54:08: I'm like that's weird What?

00:54:09: It's the first time anyone thought what I was doing was relevant Besides

00:54:13: your.

00:54:14: Yeah!

00:54:14: I mean..i thought it was important and uh.... I though there were some things That needed to be said For example telling showing how Luigi Naudi, Luigi is Luigi in Italy.

00:54:27: Is like the most famous economist?

00:54:30: Like you go around in Turin there's... The university is named after him.

00:54:35: Piazza are named after he like everything is laying a lot of stuff for named after Luizy.

00:54:40: now they're

00:54:40: still alive or

00:54:41: no?

00:54:42: He died at the end of the eighties maybe.

00:54:47: But anyway, he was... He never heard of him?

00:54:49: ...he was first president after the fall of Benito Mussolini's fascist regime.

00:54:55: okay so he became President and then he basically also in the Bank of Italy is just like one important economist that has I would say the number-one economist in Italian tradition economic and institutional roles, set the trajectory of post-Second World War Italian economic miracle so called.

00:55:20: That it was all based on low wages exporting stuff.

00:55:24: but the point is that Luigi Naudi actually a huge fan of Benito Mussolini What?

00:55:32: Yes.

00:55:32: And Luigi Naudi is also like a very prominent liberal, right?

00:55:35: So the whole point is that it... and now this considered like the father of liberalism in Italy um ...and the father you know orthodox good virtuous economics Right.

00:55:45: so The two things are here combined.

00:55:47: Like the rigorous professor and the liberal anti-fascist He's really..like he had completely recycled himself as an antifascist.

00:55:53: So wasn't he a fascist

00:55:54: ?

00:55:55: He had recycled himself As an anti-Fascist.

00:55:57: uh ..the reality was That he was.

00:56:00: And this is the whole point about... So

00:56:01: he was a fascist first and then became an anti-fascist.

00:56:05: This is to say, what does it even mean?

00:56:08: To be a fascists!

00:56:10: What you find out in the capital order if we look at economic policies that the liberals and the fascists wanted to implement after the First World War in this moment of extreme existential crisis of capitalism.

00:56:27: They loved each other because they both wanted the same austerity policies justified by the same type of economic theories, that were neoclassical economic ideas, right?

00:56:41: So this is the whole point.

00:56:42: If you look at it then you see that Luigi Naudi was writing a lot of articles on The Economist.

00:56:48: so The Economists are the newspaper for the liberal elite and The Economism just saying Mussolini's doing amazing.

00:57:00: Bounce the budget he privatized.

00:57:02: He increased the profit expectations of Foreign capital.

00:57:06: so for him, he's attracting foreign capital.

00:57:10: He is telling the workers they should stop complaining and get back to work You know?

00:57:14: He he's just doing what should be done What we know it being done still today in terms of good economic policies which is austerity.

00:57:24: So most a now do you love Mussolini?

00:57:26: for this reason and The support of the Liberals was really crucial to get Mussolini in power for over twenty years.

00:57:36: Without the support of Liberals, there would not have been a fascist regime and this is provable historically.

00:57:44: Give me some examples what Mussolina privatized in the Italian economy?

00:57:51: Mussolino

00:57:51: privatized telephones... the very early forms of telecommunication stuff, and then he privatized the roads.

00:58:05: He privatized social insurance... And all this stuff had just been basically nationalised at the beginning of the nineteen hundreds so he had just flipped it back.

00:58:17: They

00:58:17: were only invented from

00:58:19: Mexico.

00:58:19: So that's a very interesting thing.

00:58:21: is that Mussolini thought of as the right man.

00:58:25: And this is... The words I'm using, it's actually a letter that i found at the Archive of the Bank Of England written by Montagu Norman another huge like emblem of liberalism right?

00:58:39: English liberalism.

00:58:40: Montagu-Norman was the head of the bank of england for like twenty years and again so the technocrats similar to Luigi Naudi.

00:58:47: also Luigi Naudi was the central governor of the central bank of Italy.

00:58:52: So And he writes a letter to Jack Morgan, the Bank of Morgan.

00:58:57: Not now Chase Bank saying and The Bank Of Morgan was huge material supporter of Mussolini so actually financing the advent of fascism.

00:59:09: So like in the twenties they actually helped pay back that debt until it had because of war.

00:59:17: What did get into return?

00:59:20: economic stability and the possibility to invest in the Italian market.

00:59:25: And the maintenance of capitalism, Italy was as it's also after The Second World War a crucial hub for... To maintain the stability of Western capitalism, you know like that Like even the CIA has never left Italy.

00:59:44: We've never had sovereignty after The Second World War because Of how crucial Italy was in Cold war tensions right?

00:59:51: we have the biggest communist party actually In Europe and the Communist Party Was completely made subservient to the logic of Capitalism.

01:00:02: So why was I saying all this?

01:00:04: oh yes Montago Norman said He said, Mussolini was the right man in this letter.

01:00:11: The right man at a critical moment.

01:00:14: so as for the pendulum to swing... To not swing too far and the other direction.

01:00:20: So the message is clear.

01:00:21: he says you know I Know there's been torture iKnow they were killing people iKknow There's no freedom of press.

01:00:27: so This Is Actually In The Letter.

01:00:28: But Savings Are Up Prophets are up.

01:00:34: Yeah, we've re-stabilized the economic dimension.

01:00:38: And so he says... He was a right man.

01:00:40: So the pendulum is not to swing too far in other direction.

01:00:43: The other direction was an escape from capitalism A breaking with the economic order.

01:00:49: It's

01:00:49: basically said like, ah Mussolini, well democracy under attack but money good We're all making money.

01:01:01: Yesterday I went this great scholar Pavlos Rufos, who's actually here in Berlin.

01:01:08: And we were discussing and he made a really good.

01:01:11: you know We were discussing it.

01:01:12: He made a very good kind of like scheme little Scheme.

01:01:16: and is that there are the political rights?

01:01:18: There're economic Right right and liberalism.

01:01:21: so liberalism supposedly.

01:01:23: as for equality freedom Yeah Whatever just yes equality and freedom on one side.

01:01:32: but then if look at other hand They are really this is all based

01:01:37: on more equal than others in the economic sense.

01:01:40: Yes, and especially because All of these for them is based on the supposed market economy That if we take a critical stance it's actually based on heavy exploitation an economic injustice.

01:01:51: So these two things aren't contradiction with one another?

01:01:54: And just this contradiction that is like at the heart political liberalism, like they think you can have freedom and equality in a capitalist society which is the highly problematic stance to take.

01:02:06: Really this contradiction is unveiled.

01:02:14: The economic structure right.

01:02:15: people start saying actually there is exploitation.

01:02:17: Actually, we don't want to participate in exploitation.

01:02:20: This was what how it was happening after the First World War like this heavy push?

01:02:24: To get out of exploitation through Assemblies both on the countryside and the factories etc.

01:02:31: so in these moments these liberals realize that they only forces That can support the protection Of this economic structure that's falling is the fascist one.

01:02:45: And they support much more authoritarian policies to maintain the capital order and check, this what has happened with Mussolini but in many other instances historically.

01:02:56: The most famous of course is Pinochet-Cleis in Chile even in Indonesia with Suarto.

01:03:02: that's really not talked about much.

01:03:04: Even you know with Boris Yeltsin in Russia after fall wall in nineteen ninety-one he bombed literally his own parliament out of the fact that The people in Parliament did not want to open all the way To this massive privatization.

01:03:23: That happened right?

01:03:24: In nineteen ninety and Russia And Boris Yeltsin was the best friend of someone like Larry Summers.

01:03:33: In quotes best friends, the Larry Summers was defending him.

01:03:36: Larry Summers is kind of like an Audi at that time saying well you know yeah of course he bombed parliament but this what needs to be done if want to privatize liberalized and open the Russian economy to foreign investors.

01:03:53: So, you know this was clear.

01:03:54: so liberals a lot of these economists understand that these austerity policies are not popular And then you need to kind of implement them in the hard way.

01:04:04: It's like with Mussolini any other country In Europe at the time.

01:04:10: we talk about The post-war war times.

01:04:13: What what role did?

01:04:17: in that society sentiment.

01:04:23: Like I'm thinking about like, many Germans realized or witnessed for the first time because of the war... The government politics had to make decisions on what to produce and not-to-produce where to focus work and labor.

01:04:47: And Germans lost their war.

01:04:48: but you could at least see, well for a few years like focusing labor on building weapons or building this.

01:05:01: Building this actually works.

01:05:03: so making political decisions being conscious of what can be done and shouldn't be done... Actually works!

01:05:13: So did that thinking help?

01:05:15: after the war?

01:05:16: This

01:05:17: is really important, absolutely.

01:05:18: So the first chapter of The Capital War was actually exactly about this.

01:05:21: it's how you know.

01:05:22: with the war there was a huge step towards the politicization of economic decisions and Capitalism until that moment.

01:05:38: That was considered laissez-faire.

01:05:40: Of course, let's say fair is a myth altogether.

01:05:42: but the point Is?

01:05:44: The war really helped Forced actually what I explained in the book because it forced British bureaucrats for example to take take political decisions.

01:05:55: because if you left it to private investors, they were selling their ships.

01:05:59: The British ships the Germans and They're like okay If we continue with the invisible hand operation all our ships are gonna be sold To the Germans Because the private investor is more profitable.

01:06:10: for private investors sell the ships to the Germans.

01:06:15: This is actually what happened in Britain, so there was a huge crisis- Well wait

01:06:17: private investors love war I guess

01:06:20: Love War and also were like going again not because they're mean people but according to logic of capitalism you go where theres more money.

01:06:27: So off course.

01:06:28: if there's more money somewhere else The idea that y'know You need prioritize supposedly well being your people doesn't matter at all Okay?

01:06:37: So then thats big moment for British bureaucrats.

01:06:40: They were forced nationalizing ship production.

01:06:44: And they start nationalizing a lot of other productions and like central planning started becoming really, um... A way to win the war in Britain itself right?

01:06:54: Which was big change In mentality from the cradle Of classical liberalism Right!

01:07:01: So that's- That is a big moment

01:07:04: But didn't nationalize it because They did not want ships To be produced for enemy.

01:07:09: Was that the reason?

01:07:10: Well, I mean there was literally a crisis point.

01:07:14: There were not enough ships to sustain The war effort in Britain because these ships were literally being sold To the enemy.

01:07:23: so yes That was big crisis moment In which then there's process of very quick collectivization Of resources.

01:07:32: and So i would say two things is one this was clear Lee, an experiment that opened the eyes of many people.

01:07:41: Not only the bureaucrats but workers themselves who realize that you know economic imperative is not a state-of-the world.

01:07:51: it's actually something Objected to and changed.

01:07:55: so there can be political priorities now.

01:07:57: the war is not a great Political priority, but you can have other political priorities supposedly once.

01:08:02: You realize that political priorities Other than coming out exactly other plans that are not warplans.

01:08:08: Exactly So in at that point used to have that.

01:08:11: And then you have something That's very important during The War economy which Is the fact of this state directly controls exploitation as well?

01:08:18: This isn't major point of radicalization of many workers in Western Europe.

01:08:26: My case is Italy and Britain, but I'm sure it was the case in Germany as well because what happens is that this state needs to kind of control The workers.

01:08:35: why very interesting?

01:08:37: Because with the war the reserve army of the unemployed shrinks.

01:08:42: Everyone has a job, right?

01:08:44: So very interestingly once you send people to the front You're actually sending the active labor force.

01:08:49: The man men To get killed in the trenches.

01:08:55: you are left With Very few people to employ.

01:08:59: that's why they start employing women children.

01:09:01: Right you need to refurbish But that still not enough because workers can use their bargaining power at that point to say hey We don't like this condition, we're going to go work for someone else.

01:09:13: So you better raise our wages or give us better

01:09:16: conditions.".

01:09:18: And that started happening all over and that's why in Italy it went so far as to militarize the workforce naming if not good at working would be imprisoned Right.

01:09:29: So, and this is very important because it's all of a sudden... It was

01:09:33: treason not to go to work?

01:09:34: Yes well yes!

01:09:35: Because you were collaborating with the war effort.

01:09:37: Of course The industrial front.

01:09:38: You're helping the enemy by staying home.

01:09:40: Well absolutely The Industrial Front Was More Important Even Than The Real Actual Front The Industrial front.

01:09:47: What Was Allowing War Machine To Function In Italy?

01:09:52: This Is Very Important That You See All Of A Sudden.

01:09:57: And also in Britain, what they did was giving these... They were called... It's in the book.

01:10:05: Anyway you had to get permission to leave your job.

01:10:10: very similar now with non-compete clauses that are a way to control the labor force.

01:10:17: today In the US this is actually legal practice.

01:10:21: You can't go work if you worked for Starbucks let's put it McDonald, you can't go fire yourself and work for Burger King because of the non-compete clauses.

01:10:33: It is basically a way in which making sure that workers don't even have that last resort they had to fire themselves or someone else.

01:10:45: That still happens by the way.

01:10:46: so its not radically different but at this time what clear?

01:10:53: While exploitation is usually impersonal meaning that you don't really see it, right?

01:10:57: It's not... You know.

01:10:58: Its your choice to go work for someone or somebody else.

01:11:01: This the whole point about capitalism Is its impersonal exploitation Like you're not like subordinate during feudal times and was a feudal lord who would impose taking away some products of labor through legal means military means political means.

01:11:20: Under capitalism, the mayor of New York City doesn't knock on people's doors telling people go to work.

01:11:25: They have do it because otherwise they don't pay rent and end up in streets right?

01:11:29: So that economic compulsion which is very different from like political compulsion other economic systems And this is very characteristic of capitalism With The War This Falls Because all a sudden its actually...the fact that exploitation was very political Is clear cause.

01:11:44: now its state imposing exploitation, right?

01:11:47: And so this really radicalizes the workers a lot to the point that in Britain there's the shop-stort movement and they're saying we are neither for The capitalist nor for the state.

01:12:00: It works with the capitalist who impose capitalism.

01:12:03: We want to get out of both Right?

01:12:04: So the idea that the market and the State go together and their like called elaborating for exploitation was very obvious at the time And this really helped, going to your question.

01:12:15: These two things together the possibilities of planning and The fact that exploitation becomes visible because political.

01:12:23: these two things open up a huge movement for alternatives That I discuss throughout the whole first part in the book.

01:12:32: What role did the labor unions play like Italy during the war and afterwards?

01:12:39: There were

01:12:41: so okay.

01:12:42: So there were unions in that historical moment collaborated with the government and allowed to win

01:12:53: the war.

01:12:54: Yeah, exactly.

01:12:54: Of course it's interesting because actually in Italy the unions and The Socialist Party In Italy was the only party in Europe that opposed war Okay?

01:13:03: So That Was Actually Much More Than The German Party The British Party They're All Really Yes.

01:13:09: so That'S.

01:13:09: the Italian Socialists Party Was Different.

01:13:11: But Then The Unions Did Have To Collaborate In Ways That of Course.

01:13:16: then They lost a lot of credibility with the base and that was happening everywhere.

01:13:19: That's why The Factory Council movement starts as a movement to break from the collaborationism Of the unions.

01:13:26: I

01:13:26: was gonna ask about this later, but But did levy units have any bargaining power because?

01:13:31: The state needed the workers Because the men are at the front.

01:13:35: yeah So i mean they.

01:13:37: there were A lot of deals that Were like being made.

01:13:40: i mean that's Like the birth the first the birth of the welfare State.

01:13:45: The first embryos were actually being formed during the war years, right?

01:13:52: In nineteen seventeen.

01:13:54: For example in Britain and I have a whole chapter on that too you see how really there are ideas that workers are getting better food they're working... There's canteens open up.

01:14:05: They're getting their first forms of insurance against illness accidents on the workplace.

01:14:16: So this is part of a thing like you collaborate with The War, You get something in return but your still subject to priorities producing lot value for the capitalist and states that are working together.

01:14:30: so definitely it's very... there were lots facets too.

01:14:35: this.

01:14:35: what clear as that they unions had.

01:14:39: no we're not.

01:14:45: they were not objecting to exploitation per se, which is actually what the workers wanted.

01:14:49: And so there's a lot of enquiries done by.

01:14:53: I don't know...I think it was the Minister for Labour?

01:14:55: I don' remember.

01:14:55: The Ministry in UK, these enquiries are called like about workers insubordination and so they go and check workers or workers.

01:15:09: Yeah, the fact that workers were unhappy right.

01:15:10: so there is a big problem because workers are

01:15:12: raising up

01:15:14: Exactly and so they go And they do a lot of interviews for hand first-hand with all these workers.

01:15:19: Then you can find I had found them.

01:15:21: i think They're even online uh?

01:15:23: You see That The Workshops saying well Like it's A trap This State Is a Trap The Cat Our Employers Are A Trap.

01:15:30: the Unions Are Participating.

01:15:33: We want actually to represent ourselves and fight against this type of economic system.

01:15:41: Did they

01:15:41: come up with the idea of a factory council?

01:15:43: or where did that came from?

01:15:47: The roots of the factory councils were during the First World War, and basically initially illegal assemblies for workers who then threw these bargaining got recognized as a body by the employers.

01:16:06: So, the employers had to kind of recognize these assemblies.

01:16:09: but the shop steward movement in the UK was illegal like they were actually you know also because solidarity strikes where legal during the war.

01:16:19: so again we have a lot constraints on what workers could do.

01:16:24: But that's the thing!

01:16:25: They were forced on the employers, these assemblies.

01:16:29: And then they grew...

01:16:31: Like I'll give an example like in a factory hundred workers and they assembled.

01:16:38: well yes

01:16:38: and try to come up with demands For the factory owner.

01:16:46: Yes Well, they had representatives.

01:16:48: so the shop stewards were basically their representative.

01:16:50: and that these councils where at level of the workshop.

01:16:52: So there are like different sizes.

01:16:54: or was it a workshop council?

01:16:56: And then there is like the Factory Council They have amazingly sophisticated kind of constitutional designs on how supposedly this council movement will spread to be like the city council, then a council on country side and these councils were going to interact with one another.

01:17:12: I mean this was the origins of the idea of the Soviets in Russia as well right?

01:17:16: The council is gonna have kind of a concentric structure that made up representatives constantly recallable by their base.

01:17:28: And that was the big difference between the unions.

01:17:30: and there are two big differences, one is you didn't need to be unionized to participate in the council.

01:17:36: so again it members of the unions have rights, especially in a moment which a lot women were coming into.

01:17:45: The all-women of course like unions did not.

01:17:48: it was the process of dilution they called it right?

01:17:50: This is the dilution process and what you keep hiring unskilled workers And female workers that is take away bargaining power Of course from the unionized men workers.

01:18:00: so there's a lot of conflict historically between skilled and unskilled labor, because unskill labor with mechanization.

01:18:06: And during the war there were a lot of mechanization happening because they needed people to be able do work even if didn't have skills right?

01:18:15: Mechanizations taking away jobs and then these jobs that were there work could be taken by people who?

01:18:21: Were not unionized historically like women.

01:18:24: And so the council was a space.

01:18:26: That was much more democratic in this sense, but you didn't need to be an Union member to participate.

01:18:30: and The other main thing is that them their representative Was Much More accountable To the base.

01:18:40: So did they represent it if had liked these People where who recalled very often and they were rotating.

01:18:47: And so in a way, it was avoiding what happened during the war and still happens today which is that you have... The representatives of the unions become part of the bureaucratic elites are systemically corrupted by the capitalist state

01:19:02: With most labor unions.

01:19:03: here seems like more co-management than the antagonist.

01:19:08: Exactly,

01:19:10: cooperation.

01:19:11: Yeah exactly so that was.

01:19:12: it was a very radical model of horizontal democracy That was highly opposed.

01:19:18: Of course In Italy though It went pretty far in the sense that in this summer of nineteen twenty for over a month, all the factories in Italy were occupied by the workers that kicked out.

01:19:30: There's a beautiful picture of these worker sitting at the desk of Giovanni Agnelli who was the head founder of Fiat factory and they're like well... They are also building bombs.

01:19:42: These are all factories had produced A lot of war munitions and tanks And now suddenly the workers.

01:19:50: we kind of in the factories

01:19:53: Were there successful too

01:19:55: fast?

01:19:56: Like sometimes I think like from historic perspective, even in other European states.

01:20:05: Germany we said Rete Republic maybe they were two successful to fast so couldn't come up with a plan because it was clear that the capital the state would not like it.

01:20:28: Yeah, I mean... It's difficult and it is not easy to just give a clear cut answer.

01:20:37: but definitely that point-

01:20:39: What am i asking?

01:20:40: In your research towards factory counts did you read leading members be like what are we doing?

01:20:54: Everything is happening so fast, we need to come up with a plan.

01:20:59: Otherwise this will be

01:21:00: crushed.".

01:21:01: So the unions... The big complaints of Antonio Gramsci's gen he has taken and put into jail.

01:21:11: then he dies in prison.

01:21:13: The prison notebooks were written in prison but he was incarcerated by the fascist party.

01:21:17: No!

01:21:18: He dies in... Oh my God.. This really bad.

01:21:23: That late?

01:21:23: I thought that he died earlier.

01:21:24: Look it up.

01:21:25: I think he died earlier because... But go on, man!

01:21:31: ...he was imprisoned in twenty-two...

01:21:34: He died at thirty seven?

01:21:36: Okay

01:21:36: so he's imprisoned for a long time.

01:21:39: Almost right.

01:21:42: So the point is that you know Gramsci and it wasn't just Gramscia but Lordine Nuovo movement the Vanguard movement of this factory councils.

01:21:54: And, at that point Lord D'Inovo was actually combining a lot of thinkers and scholars with workers who were not just sitting in their chairs or writing.

01:22:05: they are actually in factories.

01:22:08: Gramsci could never go to war because his health conditions very bad.

01:22:13: so he is student philosophy in Torino At The Time.

01:22:15: He was organizing with the workers right?

01:22:20: Uluordino is a magazine and they had amazing stuff.

01:22:23: I read them all, They're online actually And you really see how the workers were writing on the magazine.

01:22:29: But they were writing about their own experiences in this.

01:22:31: experience was informing of economic theory The political theory Of Gramsci Right?

01:22:37: So Really seeing this synergy What Gramscia calls praxis The fact that ideas are coming out action-in-action need Ideas to accelerate.

01:22:45: In there success Gramsci was very critical.

01:22:50: of course, is that Lorde and Wojbun the factory occupation movements were betrayed by The Socialist Party.

01:22:57: That's why he... He is the founder of The Communist Party in Italy In nineteen twenty-one exactly because after The Factory Occupation episode kind Of like stops They break with The Socialists party And With the unions.

01:23:13: basically Because

01:23:15: How did the socialists betray?

01:23:17: the factory council.

01:23:19: He felt betrayed, they didn't support in their way that could have... They did not play a game I think would have and again like benefit of insight.

01:23:29: there are so many factors but definitely what was interesting... It

01:23:31: kind of rings bell because after World War One the Social Democrats also went against the councils.

01:23:40: Yeah i think it happens.

01:23:44: Here is Hans, the infamous former president.

01:23:54: From the experience of the evidence, it's worth it to support young and naive people through translation or paper?

01:24:11: Look into the description!

01:24:12: That's a completely different story.

01:24:15: Honestly... the party form of labor unions and labor unions are basically co-management.

01:24:25: Exactly,

01:24:26: it's clear where they go against the councils

01:24:29: exactly.

01:24:30: And It is clear why there.

01:24:31: threatened by the councils.

01:24:32: because the councils are demanding a form of actual radical democracy The only one in my opinion still today compatible with real democracy.

01:24:42: I mean capitalism not democratic and cannot be democratic as an economic and political system.

01:24:50: So they were really demanding something that was incompatible with the very institutional role of these unions, um...and these parties the capitalist state.

01:25:03: Yeah, so that happens in Italy as well and it's very interesting because Giovanni Giolitti who was a head of government at the time he is talking in parliament and tells the industrialists are really pissed off.

01:25:16: they're like what's going on?

01:25:17: We need government support here to stop this.

01:25:20: He says we don't have enough military personnel to kick out the workers from the factories.

01:25:30: They are more than us, like so.

01:25:32: it's very interesting moment because in terms of numbers and capacity of surveillance there was not a lot that this state could do.

01:25:44: protect private capital at that point.

01:25:46: but they still

01:25:48: won?

01:25:48: Yes!

01:25:49: And again pushed hard for mediation.

01:25:56: And so then they mediated, decided okay and could find a solution with the...

01:26:03: Mediation between factory owners?

01:26:06: They kind of like push very hard.

01:26:08: that's where Gramsci was.

01:26:10: just there is no capacity to break.

01:26:14: The movement wasn't connected enough.

01:26:17: Assemblies that were happening also in the countryside, you know Italy was still mostly agricultural.

01:26:23: So that's like a big failure.

01:26:24: It was that they were not really able to organically connect with The other workers and yeah

01:26:31: mean well the state and the Media told people on the country side out where these are evil Councils.

01:26:38: Yeah There is not.

01:26:39: so there was not this solidarity That would have allowed for actually like seizure of the means of production in total from a part to the population.

01:26:49: So that episode, but the point is was showcasing how strong the possibility of the break with a capital order, and that's where the elite organized themselves very effectively through austerity policies.

01:27:08: That then were really implemented in Benito Mussolini's rise in twenty-two.

01:27:14: It wasn't a coup, right?

01:27:15: He was called by the king to resolve political crisis.

01:27:21: so he kind given the government and then Mussolini convinced the liberals to support him by saying, I'm gonna go the way of austerity that you guys want.

01:27:33: And actually he hires as his minister of treasury and finance an economist which The Times calls An Oxford Dawn.

01:27:43: The Times is all happy, the newspaper.

01:27:44: There's a great article about the Oxford Dawn that now at head of economic ministry in Italy and how Mussolini was doing what any good economist would want which is Orthodox economics.

01:28:00: And so Mussolina was very intelligent because he surrounds himself by people That establishment really likes.

01:28:10: fascism is no longer a subversive movement.

01:28:14: It's actually, as soon as Mussoni is able to really hang on to power because he shows how he himself has adhered the orthodox economics that liberals wanted.

01:28:30: Did they call it austerity?

01:28:32: Austerity back then?

01:28:33: So there's a couple of instances in which they use the word just to refer also, like the moral.

01:28:39: Is it Greek or Latin?

01:28:45: I would imagine that is a latin word but now you're...

01:28:51: But okay!

01:28:52: They called it austerity and what did they call it by that?

01:28:55: And

01:28:56: they did call it austere In a few cases.

01:29:00: otherwise

01:29:03: In Germany we call the spa politik and it's also like some kind of propaganda name, of course.

01:29:10: Sparen means to save something is

01:29:15: good Right, and that's like the idea of a steer exactly is referring to that.

01:29:21: The capacity to live within your means right?

01:29:23: Exactly!

01:29:24: So what I show there...

01:29:28: How did they sell it...?

01:29:30: They

01:29:30: sold with this idea.

01:29:31: that was like the moral way out That they start really pressing on their fact.

01:29:37: There are all these articles.

01:29:38: It's very interesting because there's this Maffel Pantaleoni who has one big names in them neoclassical economics in Italy.

01:29:45: He's writing all these treaties and pure economics, so like super rigorous... And then he uses syllogisms and deductive methods!

01:29:54: Then he writes on the newspapers that he is writing workers live like pigs and spend their money and wine at the tavern just squander with prostitutes.

01:30:07: really classist very basic anti-worker, like rhetoric that he writes on the newspapers as He's also writing this very Very rigorous and scientific treaties.

01:30:18: And then if you put the two together something That no historian has really done so when I did it even historians of economics were Like what are you doing?

01:30:27: That you shouldn't be doing that because people study my full panterani as an economist and don't want to embed him in what he was actually doing, In terms of his political role.

01:30:37: And the fascist regime right?

01:30:38: So thats the other craziness.

01:30:40: so anyway I did this book and i showed they are very coherent with one another Because the classists insults towards workers Exactly saying your not moral You squander Your gross Matches.

01:30:55: What we talked earlier, which is the shift from saying workers you don't count.

01:30:58: You don't produce value then entrepreneur or the saver produces value so it really matches.

01:31:04: It's just a different Different words to kind of express this same idea.

01:31:09: that has made more scientific in these models

01:31:15: Reminds me what was started earlier with mainstream economics.

01:31:22: put everything on its head?

01:31:26: Yes, absolutely.

01:31:30: Okay as when we talk about austerity What?

01:31:37: what was it back then and?

01:31:38: And what is it now?

01:31:39: is still the same?

01:31:40: that's a very important question.

01:31:42: I would say, yes.

01:31:43: It's still the same.

01:31:45: of course it's involved as capitalism has evolved.

01:31:47: but The main point which is for me crucial Is that the definition we have a austerity to gay?

01:31:54: That doesn't get what austerity actually is.

01:31:57: Why?

01:31:58: Because its an empty definition.

01:31:59: Its vision on the whole that economists really like the aggregate And it misses the points.

01:32:05: So if you read this definition you'll see that austerity is about budget cuts and tax increases.

01:32:11: This definition is absurd.

01:32:13: It's not about budget cuts, it's about dismantling social services resources for the people in various forms housing health care schools while this state spending resources to de-risk subsidize private investors right?

01:32:31: That this exactly what we're seeing today that militarism and austerity are just two faces of the same coin, I would say.

01:32:39: actually militarism is an expression of austerity.

01:32:42: Because again, austerity's not about cutting the budget.

01:32:44: it's about cutting specific aspects of the budget which makes a lot sense because austerity all about shifting resources away from those who are now potentially mobilizing and potentially wanting to break for market dependence And from exploitation in favor Of The other pillar of capitalism Which Is private investment right?

01:33:05: So you need To maintain That's secure and you do it.

01:33:09: how?

01:33:10: Cutting social services.

01:33:11: You do it through regressive taxation.

01:33:13: again It's not about taxing or not is about who you taxed.

01:33:16: And if you find out that cap capital is detached labor Is heavily taxed, and so what happened also with Mussolini is that he was bragging about how, while he was eliminating all the taxation on super war profits that had been kind of implemented during the Red Biennium just right before.

01:33:37: He was dismantling inheritance taxes.

01:33:44: people that until then had not been taxed because they were too poor and started of course increasing consumption taxes, which is a very heavily regressive form of taxation.

01:33:54: Which how?

01:33:55: what's happening still today?

01:33:57: Is that consumption taxes go up.

01:33:59: capital invested capital is not taxed at all, right?

01:34:03: Actually on our free YouTube... I host this interview.

01:34:07: Not as good as you of course and also profound and psychological as yours but i do have a conversation with some professors in general people that bring about important knowledge.

01:34:22: so we had the conversation on our youtube channel for free with an American tax lawyer.

01:34:30: He does analysis and stuff.

01:34:32: And he says Jeff Bezos pays two point eight percent tax, um, and this is because capital which has invested is not taxed.

01:34:41: Um, there's a way to actually just pass over all that.

01:34:49: you're the return from your invested capital without paying one dime of taxes in the United States.

01:34:55: While, of course a lot of people are poor because they're overtaxed and so regressive taxation is a big one And it works then It worked very well then Of course Because if you need to pay your taxes You're more market dependent cause you need To find out money Right?

01:35:11: So again Especially If food becomes More expensive Then there's what I call industrial austerity, which was very heavy with Mussolini.

01:35:22: Mussolina was great at it and which is privatization again.

01:35:25: Privatization is not the state stepping back.

01:35:28: It's this state actively extracting And shifting resources that has taken away from people in private hands its... Mussolin went so far as he of course like Hitler banned strikes, banned the right to unionize and heavy control.

01:35:45: He also depressed wages by decree so he actually passed laws to cut wages.

01:35:52: So that was a very extreme form of industrial austerity.

01:35:55: but today you see in many forms all the ways labor is deregulated constantly.

01:35:59: That's industrial austerities serves the same purpose as disciplining workers while protecting private capitalists.

01:36:05: And finally, what we can call monetary austerity.

01:36:08: This is the trinity of austerity I discuss in this book.

01:36:11: Monetary austerity is mostly finding ways to make money more expensive—money that's being borrowed more expensive.

01:36:20: so usually you increase interest rates and thats how they were able Subdu all the huge strikes that were happening and all the alternatives to capitalism That had emerged after the first world war.

01:36:38: We're mostly killed by Huge unemployment rates that go up like crazy.

01:36:43: After The Bank of England increases the interest rates in April of nineteen twenty one by seven or eight percent.

01:36:50: They do that an interesting enough.

01:36:52: Keynes wanted to read increasing interest rate by ten percent.

01:36:54: even so at a time He really wanted heavy monetary austerity.

01:36:58: we forget that part of Keynes's trajectory.

01:37:01: But anyway, the point is that once interest rates go up like we see today unemployment numbers go up and this unemployment number is actually very good for the capital order because it protects a class balance.

01:37:14: It tells workers well chill out cuz now you're gonna risk your job if you mobilize.

01:37:19: That's exactly what happened.

01:37:20: There was.

01:37:21: I have a chapter on statistics in the book In which i really show how wants interest rates Go Up.

01:37:25: unemployment goes up And then immediately after union participation drops, as well as strike strikes and strike intensity.

01:37:34: So it's very clear the correlation.

01:37:36: so that's why The point here is that monetary policies really work when they affect labor relations And all central bankers know this.

01:37:43: if This Is no No, no strange things to say

01:37:46: I heard this during the corona crisis from some of my guests When the European Central Bank raised?

01:37:54: Interest rate.

01:37:55: They said like okay, this actually to create more unemployment.

01:38:00: Yeah,

01:38:00: so

01:38:01: yeah and I think this way

01:38:03: just don't go up

01:38:04: Absolutely.

01:38:04: So this is the whole point that the story about inflation And how they tell you.

01:38:09: well we need to increase interest rates because that's the way We solve inflation?

01:38:13: Um, and so we stabilize money at the expense of workers.

01:38:16: basically They say it quite clearly.

01:38:17: So that's really interesting.

01:38:18: Is that how day even mainstream economists when it comes to policies?

01:38:22: That's kind of what i try To do in the book as a hey This is What they Say.

01:38:26: then check out what they do, and you realize in What They Do.

01:38:30: You see how capitalism by definition requires the sacrifice of working class majority because monetary stability can only really work under capitalism through compressing wages thanks to precarious labor conditions for workers And this is very clear, like when interest rates go up it's going to increase unemployment.

01:38:59: This how you stabilize money and I think in the doings of economic policies the majority losing.

01:39:19: to go back to that point, right?

01:39:20: So it... That's a very important point is how economists in monetary policies really disclose.

01:39:28: The actual classist nature of their policy which exactly what this system needs though.

01:39:35: Is austerity anything we don't like?

01:39:39: from leftist point-of view Is

01:39:42: it anything we don't like?

01:39:44: No.

01:39:44: Like sometimes when I listen to people on austerity or budget cuts and all this, is that always wrong?

01:39:57: Thanks, because this isn't a point-point...I would say if you take the perspective of what i'm trying in my book The conclusion you get from what progressive economists tell us self-defined Keynesian or whatever, then we can get into that.

01:40:15: But anyway progressive economists will tell you...

01:40:17: You were a progressive economist

01:40:18: as well?

01:40:19: Well I would say more kind of like a Marxist and an economist than a Progressive Economist even if i'm going to the Progressive Day of Economics tomorrow.

01:40:28: The debate on militarism with I don't know but anyways...

01:40:31: Other Marxists are progressives.

01:40:34: No!

01:40:35: It depends what you mean by progressives.

01:40:41: thinkers have accepted to participate within the idea that somehow you can just improve capitalism.

01:40:49: But I would say that progressives are not anti-capitalist, and I wouldn't say... Really?

01:40:56: Definitely no progressive as they were understood in the Progressive Movement of United States in the twenties and thirties or forties in US.

01:41:06: That's a hundred

01:41:07: years ago!

01:41:08: Well, that's like in the US.

01:41:09: That's still how you use progressive.

01:41:11: so if you say progressive You're definitely not meaning anti-capitalist.

01:41:14: your meaning kind of The idea.

01:41:19: I

01:41:20: mean Mamdani or Sanders.

01:41:23: What would they consider them?

01:41:24: Would they call themselves progressives?

01:41:26: Mamdania I don't know.

01:41:27: like Sanders is definitely not what

01:41:28: they called us as democratic socialists.

01:41:31: Yeah, democratic socialists.

01:41:32: Sure I mean they're.

01:41:34: these terminologies are often confusing.

01:41:36: i would tell you that like a lefty economist Would potentially tell you austerity is wrong.

01:41:45: going back to your point right?

01:41:46: That austerity's wrong and by definition.

01:41:49: By definition And I think this analysis needs To be qualified I will tell You that it's not Wrong according to the logic of The economic system in the sense that It works To do what it's supposed to.

01:42:03: Someone like Mark Blythe wrote a whole book saying austerity never works because it doesn't really help balance the budget and increase growth, right?

01:42:12: The idea that austerity is actually recessionary, that its not improving growth... That how progressive economists usually see this problem as does austerity help or not promote growth?

01:42:23: That basically was only conversation!

01:42:25: I started writing.

01:42:26: in his book he said regime, people were literally becoming homeless like under my eyes.

01:42:35: In Italy we never really had homelessness and I mean... We've had huge housing crisis but the homelessness that started spiraling during those

01:42:43: years?

01:42:43: After the financial crisis?

01:42:44: Yeah!

01:42:44: Yeah yeah.

01:42:45: In year two thousand twelve homelessness became a thing in italy right.

01:42:49: so That was happening.

01:42:50: And then the conversation with economists Was only about whether austerity helps or not promote economic growth.

01:42:56: i'm just.

01:42:57: This is such a depoliticized question that it's missing the point.

01:43:03: The point is not whether austerity is promoting growth or not, but to understand that austerity works for much more important bottom line which is that to stabilize class relations and refurbish the two pillars upon which capitalism stands wage labor again by increasing market dependence weaker and disciplining them, and private investment.

01:43:32: Now this is when you decide to problematize capitalism because the mainstream debate just takes capitalism for granted political order upon which we actually live.

01:43:43: You're only focusing on this idea that the economy is just like in this toolbox and there's an object, you can manage it or increase growth, diminish it... This has a highly abstract view of what progressive economists take so they limit their conversation about debt and growth.

01:44:00: So I would tell you that austerity does work Purely irrational or like the outcome of corrupt governments, you know it's a policy mistake.

01:44:10: I don't take that line.

01:44:11: i think That's Completely apolitical view of things.

01:44:16: austerity is not a policy mistakes.

01:44:18: austerity Is the necessary tool?

01:44:21: For capitalism to support itself.

01:44:25: There cannot be capitalism without austerity and this is a fundamental bottom-line That needs to be explored much more seriously, and this book is the beginning of a sequel that I'm Working on.

01:44:37: To look at the Keynesian eras after The Second World War.

01:44:41: so what happened in the supposed glorious years In which we didn't have austerity?

01:44:45: That's wrong.

01:44:46: there was austerity also in the fifties and sixties it Was heavily pushed by economists even Keynesan economists because in my view There are very clear political limits to what can be done in terms of distribution resources without risking destroying the foundations of capitalism, In terms of political power.

01:45:10: Like for example if you actually decided To give people a an income that allowed them to exist decently Without having to go to work We wouldn't be under capitalism right.

01:45:23: so Anything that is given by the state has to be conditional on making sure people still go and get exploited.

01:45:33: That's a very clear political limit, you can't really boost economy through social expenditures because it empowers people.

01:45:48: people that have more time to associate, that had more resources actually get more radical in a way.

01:45:54: And I think this is very important as if you break market dependence.

01:46:02: This allows for greater spaces of association To potentially think deeper especially right now with the ecological crisis and genocide.

01:46:10: Think deeper about what we want to do as human beings in terms of how we create our material conditions.

01:46:15: This is not something that capitalist state can do because it's like risking very hard the foundations of our economy, so that's why you know subsidizing private investors through surveillance, through AI ,through the militarist boom... That's much safer politically!

01:46:31: You see what I mean?

01:46:32: So for me the whole point is that austerity a kernel of capitalism.

01:46:42: That's why I need to write the second book, is really to prove that even in those moments you couldn't go without

01:46:47: austerity.".

01:46:49: So this whole point—is that austerity not wrong?

01:46:52: It's wrong for us and it isn't wrong for capital order so its irrational for people but very rational for logic that governs today.

01:46:59: Let

01:47:00: me say...I'm a politician maybe in power I'm in favor of certain budget cuts.

01:47:09: Like let's say, want to cut spending on the military?

01:47:14: Wanted get rid off subsidies that i don't like like you know fossil subsidies here most Of the Subsidies in Germany they go too.

01:47:30: The very few or some corporations bad behavior subsidized.

01:47:38: These kind of budget cuts.

01:47:39: as a politician, am I doing austerity?

01:47:45: No!

01:47:47: i would say not because if you are actually... I'm

01:47:50: being austere.

01:47:54: Well again it's really... Austerity is all those policies that actively support private investors to the detriment of working class resources.

01:48:11: So that's what I would say, so in a way if you're cutting... subsidies to the big corporations, then this could be like a way to actually distribute the other way around.

01:48:24: Now I don't know if they're gonna go all though... If your politician is going do that!

01:48:29: But um..I would say that's actually counter-to the logic of this economy.

01:48:34: Usually the capitalist state does not butt heads with large capital.

01:48:44: That's rare

01:48:47: competing capitalists in a country, like there's not infinite money.

01:48:54: Like they're worldview and their system.

01:48:58: so I can imagine billions of euros going into the military will make some capitalist mad as in.

01:49:07: okay.

01:49:07: well i expected those billions or millions to go economic field?

01:49:15: Oh, absolutely.

01:49:15: No no I mean again...I really think that the lens i propose in the book The Capital Order is a lens that helps make sense of.

01:49:27: A lot of things are usually very much mystified and kind of kept, um...very blurry.

01:49:32: And one needs to have like a clear sense of the direction that capitalist state takes.

01:49:37: This does not mean That once-one wants to simplify The fact that capitalism is about again warlike competition between different sections or factions Or whatever you wanna call them Of capitalists right?

01:49:51: And then these capitalists also competing for the support of uh, The governments and the capitalist state.

01:50:00: Right?

01:50:00: So there is clearly a lot of animosity.

01:50:03: This is why capitalism is war of all against all right.

01:50:06: so There's the capitalist against the workers but there's also the capitalist again each other And there are different factions of capital that have Different interests like austerity does the immediate interest Of financial capital because actually it's banks increase their profits the most once interest rates go up.

01:50:26: If you look at industrial capitalists, and again... Financial industrial capitalists are much closer than one thinks.

01:50:33: There's a lot of literature on that, so we don't want to simplify it either.

01:50:36: but definitely for industrial capitalist interest rate increases doesn't mean good thing immediately because they're actually going have spend more tomorrow and thats why their activity usually slows down.

01:50:50: the reason why unemployment goes up is exactly there less job opportunities in immediate reaping profits to actually produce, right?

01:51:00: So in that sense you could say well, austerity is what does the immediate interest of The City Of London or Wall Street while it's not immediately doing the interest of industrial capital.

01:51:11: This said...the point here is to say

01:51:14: A.)

01:51:14: That finance and industry now are like really highly intertwined.

01:51:18: B.)

01:51:19: That Industrial Capital is also benefiting In a deeper sense because they do need Subordinated workers and if you don't have subordinated Workers, You're not going to be able to extract a surplus in the first place right?

01:51:34: so of course maybe immediately.

01:51:35: You lose And that's what happened in Britain.

01:51:37: Immediately The expert industries were screwed by interest rates increases because they weren't competitive anymore To export abroad.

01:51:46: but then If you look at what happened with the strikes there are winners too.

01:51:50: There was structural winners Because the class balance They needed In order Higher people in the first place was refurbished.

01:51:58: So I think it's important is like, you know There are sectors of capitalist fighting against another but the bottom line Is that they all need?

01:52:07: The capital order to be stable.

01:52:09: and That's what the capitalist state needs to do when the First Place is guarantee this political and economic stability.

01:52:17: They're there in competition with each other Until they need to stick together

01:52:24: exactly

01:52:25: to exploit the rest.

01:52:27: And that's what you see in cases of fascist governments.

01:52:31: getting consensus is usually, they're able to unite?

01:52:36: Let me just clear about if there was a difference between liberal austerity and fascist austerity because I wrote down... In Germany many of my viewers we all have experienced some kind of austerity measures the last few decades, but still.

01:52:58: The government hasn't gotten rid of unions or hasn't got rid off certain freedoms you know to strike and all this?

01:53:06: And is that the difference too like fascist austerity where you know, fascists would eliminate rights in unions.

01:53:15: so That's a that's very important In the sense As everything, there are degrees of authoritarianism and they're our degrees levels economic violence.

01:53:30: But I would say that two things is you know more direct less direct ways to get the same result.

01:53:40: so the direct way is to ban unions make strikes illegal torture kill a political opposition.

01:53:50: And by the way, my book is actually... Oh my goodness.

01:53:57: I'm so out of it!

01:53:58: What do you say when you write a book for someone?

01:54:02: You dedicate it to someone?

01:54:03: Thank you.

01:54:04: It's dedicated to my great uncle who was one those people that died in torture prison tortured by the Nazi occupation in nineteen forty-four.

01:54:15: He was working for deliberation and he killed himself with shoelaces, so that's you know...that is a hard way but then you can do it.

01:54:25: the soft or more impersonal ways which are doing two things increasing interest rates heavily influences the unemployment rate.

01:54:36: And then making sure that you do increase those interest rates, how?

01:54:40: By protecting central bank independence and this is exactly the British route You know.

01:54:45: That's why it's a comparative study of what Italy and Britain did after in the twenties Is that Britain fought huge battle to protect and actually refurbish central bank independence.

01:55:00: And as one of the protagonists of the book writes, because Central Bank should never explain... Never regret!

01:55:08: Never

01:55:08: apologize.".

01:55:09: So this is a whole point that you can have a fascist dictator or you could have technocratic institutions by their own framework.

01:55:18: you know, like the ECB.

01:55:19: The most independent central bank of the world has it within its constitution—the fact that no political interference can ever take place right?

01:55:26: So there's actually if we read this Constitution... It is not liable to external influence.

01:55:36: so you are de-democratizing political decision making by taking away the space from people and keeping it to very, very few technocrats.

01:55:46: So this deep democratization process can happen through strengthening of these technocratic institutions.

01:55:55: And that's what happens in a liberal way Of the British case still today if you like with European Union.

01:56:04: Can imagine a democratic central bank or a democratic Central Bank system?

01:56:12: Well, no because I would say that again central banks are part of how the capital order is managed.

01:56:18: So

01:56:20: we could change this.

01:56:23: Yeah, i would say definitely.

01:56:25: what I'd say Is that...I really believe in what Rosa Luxemburg wrote which is that reform serves revolution Reform and Revolution or not in opposition with one another.

01:56:37: Revolution

01:56:38: means no more central banks, like overcoming central

01:56:41: banks?

01:56:41: Yeah revolution means to me the overcoming of the capitalist economy.

01:56:45: that is really flawed.

01:56:47: and again what we're seeing today which would probably mean no central banks as we understand them today.

01:56:56: But like a democratically run Central Bank, it'd be better than this status

01:56:59: quo?

01:56:59: Yes exactly that's what I'm saying.

01:57:01: if thats revolution the point is that reform... It doesn't matter if its like

01:57:05: reform or evolution but still better

01:57:07: right?

01:57:08: Its better!

01:57:08: What i am saying is that reforms so they deal with focusing for example on the campaign of nationalization of central banks or democratization of Central Banks, which have happened historically.

01:57:20: These are very important campaigns because it's a campaign to raise awareness and say if we want to try to democratize central banking this would require an whole new set of problems and realizations that doesn't work in.

01:57:42: potentially would like be the first step towards again pushing for something more courageous, right?

01:57:49: So that's why I'm saying like reform and revolution are not in opposition.

01:57:52: I was thinking like reform is very important to raise awareness and start a process.

01:58:03: Yeah, radical.

01:58:04: So I would definitely agree with you.

01:58:05: so yes absolutely say.

01:58:06: democratic central banks would be a huge important campaign that i think would only be possible to accomplish in a potentially non-capitalist society.

01:58:15: what role did the coordination of central banks have hundred years ago compared now?

01:58:23: What role of coordination between each

01:58:26: other?

01:58:26: The coordination...what role like the central banks meet and coordinate with each other.

01:58:35: What role did it play a hundred years ago compared to now?

01:58:38: Or is still the same?

01:58:42: in this capitalistic system,

01:58:47: I would say that It's mostly working according to the same To the same principles and of course Changes because also like monetary framework exchange Like we had you know The gold standard then We have liked the Gold Exchange Standard under Bretton Woods.

01:59:05: Now We don't have, we had the dollar standard basically today.

01:59:09: Right?

01:59:10: So there are like evolutions in our monetary system.

01:59:13: But

01:59:13: central banks didn't decide to get rid of the gold standards as that was the American government right.

01:59:20: well yes it's a political process that also involves central bank.

01:59:24: so this is not exactly my point or expertise but definitely I would say How central banks operates of course changes according to what monetary order?

01:59:37: Monetary system they are like you know, like pegging during the gold standard.

01:59:41: Like the Central Banks It was kind of a. it Was kind of an automatic thing that if Your balance of payments wasn't deficit You would have to raise interest rates so that you would have more gold flowing back into your coffers by By attracting.

02:00:02: attracting gold through higher interest rates, right?

02:00:04: So that was like an automatic thing.

02:00:07: When your currency is not pegged to gold technically you have a lot more space of political space.

02:00:15: supposedly do quantitative easing or anyway supposedly stimulate the economy because You don't have the problem of monetary reserves as a fixed objective, right?

02:00:35: So it's very different when you're in a gold standard situation because pegging your currency to gold, and this requires de facto interest rate hikes every time you lose gold reserves.

02:00:49: Today it's really about like how much political power these governments have.

02:00:53: And of course if you are in the south of the globe even if its not a gold standard system anymore You're still basically very much dependent on dollar reserves, of course because your currency does not have a lot stability and credibility for international investors.

02:01:12: And so you are going to have to exert more and more austerity.

02:01:15: that's why the global south in a way has been subject to excessive austerity much more heavily than the Global North exactly because of the fact they do central banks dollar reserves in order to be credible as, um... In their own economic transactions.

02:01:41: If that makes sense?

02:01:44: Are there any new austerity measures?

02:01:58: Did they come up with new stuff?

02:02:12: Well, I would say that of course.

02:02:14: Um, I mean it depends.

02:02:16: Every context is different and i'm sure There's like cases uh That you could look at for many different countries.

02:02:23: but definitely I would Say that You know the whole um The Whole gig economy And and and the type Of labor law that revolves around the gig economy is very different in The sense, like this...the way in which Labor's made precarious by also just eliminating the whole concept of employer-employee Is definitely an evolution.

02:02:49: That is a very austere but very different from the original form.

02:02:54: So definitely the Gig Economy and how workers are structurally precarious, while technically being self-employed is a new form in which industrial austerity has evolved.

02:03:07: And then one could think about of course all the way in which even suppose green energy Is Being used as a sphere to Protect private big private asset managers globally speaking.

02:03:23: I think that's also something newish for the twenty-first century, right?

02:03:29: The whole kind of...the way in which austerity is a conversation with supposed green Keynesianism.

02:03:35: You see like in my framework then you start wondering what's the difference between Keynesanism and austerity Which I'm currently researching on this other book to say that a lot of supposed Keynesin measures through this class lens are actually completely compatible with austerity policies, right?

02:03:53: So like kind of the process of de-risking.

02:03:56: This idea of a lot these large green energy corporations that by the way super extractive you know...this is not my field but again I've done also interviews on this one.

02:04:11: On my YouTube channel, it's like super extractive and super destructive in places like South Africa even the south of Italy.

02:04:19: now these solar panels are... And there is also the wind panels.

02:04:29: How do they call them?

02:04:32: Windmills?

02:04:33: They have a The possibility to even installing these means a complete destruction of the whole ecology around them, right?

02:04:43: So it has enormous impacts ecologically speaking.

02:04:48: And so what I'm saying here is that also... That's maybe like new frontier as way the capitalist state actually supports this greenwashing we're seeing everywhere.

02:05:01: I was thinking about the rise.

02:05:03: trade partnerships in the world are more and more in competition with each other.

02:05:10: Also for sure, absolutely

02:05:11: like subsidizing artificial intelligence.

02:05:14: so the factory owners for example need less wage labor and just compensated with AI

02:05:24: or technology?

02:05:25: Absolutely that's huge.

02:05:26: also yes absolutely The labor saving technology is now...the way it has escalate again.

02:05:33: super of course connected the huge ecological impact of data centers and need for a lot of energy resources that are not compatible at all.

02:05:50: What would be austerity measures for the rich, and the capitalists?

02:05:59: In what sense... Well

02:06:01: let's say some of us needs to more austere, you know actually have less and maybe the rich super rich.

02:06:15: Okay sure.

02:06:16: so when I say austerity or kind of these like economic policies from governments are economic institutions be in the IMF for this date?

02:06:25: You're saying more kind

02:06:29: taxing the rich or taking away from the rich to give them, so that poor can be an economic policy as well?

02:06:36: Yes.

02:06:37: I don't know if...I wouldn't call it-that would be the opposite of austerity for me!

02:06:41: I know but that was a joke.

02:06:44: Yeah okay sorry they didn't get the joke.

02:06:47: wait

02:06:50: Since they love austerity, well let's be austere.

02:06:53: Yeah exactly okay I got it.

02:06:54: yes absolutely that would be great.

02:06:56: just the other way around

02:06:58: Other way round?

02:06:59: Sorry i'm tired and a bit dumb.

02:07:01: Yes Absolutely yeah.

02:07:04: That would require a lot of popular pressure.

02:07:08: so in Tulsa for example we started this campaign on participatory budgeting which is very interesting project because by the way, it's been implemented in Brazil and the nineteen eighties and nineties.

02:07:18: And had really good like class impacts in terms of actually being able to shift resources in the other direction not their usual one that compatible with a capital order.

02:07:29: And so we have an event is also on our YouTube channel which we tried too.

02:07:35: We add the mayor of this town.

02:07:37: sit down with us there tax lawyer that I already talked about and to this guy who works on participatory budgeting.

02:07:48: And the whole point here is, um... The only way this mayors even at a local level not think of it as national level-the only way these representatives in our elected governments are going to budge in the direction that's not austere!

02:08:06: is going to be through popular pressure.

02:08:08: And so the only way, for example these participatory budgeting campaigns are ways in which people say well you know that's our money and we want to decide how it's being spent.

02:08:19: And by the way, maybe you should get more money from The Rich Guy instead of From Us right?

02:08:25: So that conversation participatory budgeting can be also about revenue not just about How You Spend Money but Also How Do You Get That Money.

02:08:34: so that type Of Conversation especially at a local level Can Really I Think Get People Moving and People Engaged in Actually Participating To Put Pressure towards their elected officials that usually otherwise only hear the story from, they're ones at the top.

02:08:52: So the mayor of Tulsa is a typical example.

02:08:54: in Tulsa we have three or four big corporations who run this whole city and there are also the philanthropists.

02:09:02: so actually no public parties.

02:09:04: which one?

02:09:05: Which four corporations?

02:09:10: The Kaiser Foundation for example.

02:09:15: No, no.

02:09:16: Now I'm going to be persecuted in Tulsa for saying your name and something kind of coming

02:09:20: up.

02:09:20: what do you produce?

02:09:21: So there now it used to be oil because Tulsa was the oil capital of the world In the early nineteen twenties which is pretty interesting.

02:09:32: so the biggest that Tulsa's airport Which now has a very small Airport used biggest more trafficked airports.

02:09:40: Because there was a lot of oil that was basically stolen from the indigenous people, right?

02:09:45: So actually Tulsa is reservation land still today.

02:09:48: but you know The United States settler colonial country based on genocide and so nothing new under this world.

02:09:56: again Genocide because we're under capitalism not because people are mean.

02:10:00: And I think it's important like point as the economic logic That brings to this extraction and destruction.

02:10:10: Oil was basically plundered from the indigenous people and then of course, then financialization.

02:10:17: So that foundation... The Kaiser family also has the Oklahoma bank I believe something like that.

02:10:25: anyway That's one of them.

02:10:26: many there's quick trip There's you know?

02:10:28: There's big business everywhere.

02:10:31: It's nothing special.

02:10:33: but the point is usually local administrations listen to those powers, especially because those are the powers also finance the campaigns rather than to the Local citizens that instead have no voice at all.

02:10:49: Right?

02:10:50: So I think this is the most important thing Is that participatory budgeting can be a way for People to actually pressure that mayor to say no you have to listen to us too because at the end of The day they give money but we give the votes and Actually, you can have as much money as you want But if you're not gonna get the votes then that money is useless right?

02:11:08: It's funny when he quickly Google this Kaiser guy.

02:11:15: Yeah like the first sentence it's like oh He supports projects in education healthcare and social projects in Telso.

02:11:26: Yeah, yeah great guy.

02:11:28: well then yes And the other problem is that if you want any money You will need to shut your mouth about anything regarding Palestine.

02:11:40: of course His

02:11:44: family flew from the Nazis Jewish Family.

02:11:48: Yeah,

02:11:51: I didn't know that part of the story.

02:11:52: Maybe a part of it yes and they're very course like again.

02:12:00: This is nothing new.

02:12:01: we know how university works in the United States How there's huge?

02:12:05: Censorship about anything.

02:12:08: That Is About you Know

02:12:09: With A Palestine Progazzo protests at your university?

02:12:14: Not so much.

02:12:15: I was still in New York, so i was participating and an encampment there with the professors actually but when I came to Tulsa... There's something small about their are some of them.

02:12:24: you know they're free.

02:12:24: our organization has a lot of people that have been fighting for the correct connection between indigenous genocide Palestine Genocide.

02:12:34: You Know A Lot Of Indigenous People Feel Very Strongly About What's Happening In Palestine Because It Was Their Past too.

02:12:41: So definitely what you see is that this is a crazy story, it's actually the city of Tulsa owns a lot debt.

02:12:52: And who does the City Of Tulsa own a lot of debt to?

02:12:55: To these financial institutions then are those same ones?

02:12:58: supposedly are philanthropists... Who they're basically!

02:13:03: So taking the money from the taxpayers to pay back the debt and big, large budget.

02:13:09: I was looking at the numbers.

02:13:09: now don't...I can't tell you exactly want say something dumb but they're actually available online.

02:13:16: The money that comes in too from tax payers workers in Tulsa goes to payback parts of the debts or at least pay interest on the debt.

02:13:30: That's money that is being then put into these philanthropic projects to kind of like get a sense at what the rich are doing good for other people.

02:13:40: Now, this philanthropic project or better than nothing because in fact there's lot really nice... There's very important park and it completely funded by these... The

02:13:51: Kaiser Park problem?

02:13:53: Yes!

02:13:53: By them.

02:13:53: yes absolutely.

02:13:56: but the point Again, philanthropy is a highly-highly problematic issue under capitalism because it's not them doing good.

02:14:06: It then giving crumbs of resources and value that has been extracted from their own population and the natural resources around them.

02:14:17: so... And again this happens everywhere!

02:14:20: Nothing new or exceptional in Tulsa.

02:14:24: Is it exceptional to be an economic professor?

02:14:28: who is spreading heterodox ideas in Tulsa.

02:14:33: Are you the only one?

02:14:36: Yes,

02:14:38: I'm definitely one of a few.

02:14:40: and Is

02:14:42: that why they hired or didn't know?

02:14:46: So the story do you want?

02:14:47: The whole story, it's gonna be.

02:14:48: I'll do it short because otherwise.

02:14:49: It's going to take forever.

02:14:50: i was actually I didn't move true story.

02:14:52: I did moved at that true story.

02:14:54: I did move totals Because I was hired to direct a center for heterodox economics And I started up this enter.

02:15:04: the start of the Center was going very well and then The university had a political transition, the president changed.

02:15:14: They kind of blocked some projects that were happening and they didn't have money...

02:15:19: Were there austerity measures at the University?

02:15:20: Exactly!

02:15:21: Thank you.

02:15:22: Yes There was austerity measure at the university And then decided it wasn't funding enough for this center.

02:15:29: But since I again started off by very much firing touch with the locals, more than just speaking to closed doors with academics.

02:15:41: There was a lot of popular support for what was The Che and the center for heterodox economics And so we basically went independent.

02:15:52: So it's kind of smooth transition.

02:15:55: Now the free forum for economic emancipation is basically independent from university.

02:16:01: now We have our own budget, participatory budget our own assembly.

02:16:07: Our own space and so far it's much better.

02:16:15: like I realized that unfortunately you can't really do transformative projects relying on a private institution.

02:16:24: That is heavily embedded in everything we've discussed.

02:16:26: Where are your naïve?

02:16:28: I was very naive Very!

02:16:30: I was insanely naive.

02:16:31: How could be naive?

02:16:33: Well, I mean...I don't know.

02:16:35: Maybe one can say having listened to me for the whole conversation that i'm just naive in general?

02:16:41: My husband was telling me he's like why are you working so hard at university?

02:16:46: but it wasn't a political project.

02:16:48: It is not because of my work at university.

02:16:50: This is the point.

02:16:52: You need.

02:16:53: this type things needs spaces that haven't been captured by the logic of accumulation.

02:16:59: And universities are captured by that logic from the fact they extract value for students and accumulate, all universities are heavily invested in militarization and extraction and genocide.

02:17:13: so it's everything is connected.

02:17:14: So we luckily separated and now the assembly is self-managed.

02:17:21: We have a circle, it's not easy to be effective in a democratic space.

02:17:25: so... And again inspired by the council movement I was like why?

02:17:28: Like let's you know we are building a council.

02:17:31: So The Free is a Council and as any council that Is participated by people who are deeply molded by the society, it's difficult to get along.

02:17:45: It is true that we are socialized under capitalism and immediately think others as our enemy.

02:17:53: so instead of... We always have a sense.

02:17:57: what other people do or say is probably because they have some hidden interest, or like hidden agenda.

02:18:02: So even to get people really trust one another it's already a huge political process that an assembly space can be... Be a place where you can relearn how to be together.

02:18:16: and I've been relearning alot.

02:18:17: How did

02:18:17: the people react?

02:18:18: your economic views?

02:18:21: Political views?

02:18:22: In Tulsa

02:18:23: Do you tell them?

02:18:26: I'm

02:18:27: a communist or socialist.

02:18:28: Well,

02:18:28: I wouldn't say...I don't like to use either the words Communist or Socialist because they've been captured so heavily by the... What

02:18:38: do you use?

02:18:40: Anti-capitalists?

02:18:41: I used anti-capitulist and advocate for economic emancipation as The Free is called Like.

02:18:48: i really think we need to use language that can attract people very much.

02:18:58: Yeah, just brainwashed by the idea that and plus you know historically realized communism And I mean socialists in socialism.

02:19:07: In Europe has been completely in board on board with austerity.

02:19:11: Rickon Berlinguard was the one who imposed austerity neatly in the seventies very heavily.

02:19:16: So socialism has been austere.

02:19:20: Historically.

02:19:21: realize Communism in a way has been astir as well because they were not able to escape the wage relation right.

02:19:26: so there's Discussion that would be great to have and I want to study more like how does austerity play out in the USSR?

02:19:33: The USSR was also heavily, yeah.

02:19:36: Yeah when we did That

02:19:38: right exactly.

02:19:39: so i think uh that's another sphere.

02:19:42: i Think you need people that actually read russian To be able to Actually do their archival work there.

02:19:47: but i think the whole point is at this framework of austerity social shows How once russia had to come competes in a global capitalist system.

02:19:55: The way to do it was still, to maximize exploitation.

02:19:58: and the way you maximize exploitation is also through austerity as we've been discussing.

02:20:02: So...the point here Is that I think those terms like don't serve any political good.

02:20:12: But when people ask What do you tell them?

02:20:15: Well,

02:20:15: listen there is lots of words one can use.

02:20:17: One could say like we just had an event in Tulsa on social ecology with Eleanor Finley who actually went and studied the cases about all these movements.

02:20:27: in Chapas or Rojava There's a lot of assembly spaces that are about the commons self-governance of the commons, right?

02:20:38: So regeneration like regeneration regenerative economics.

02:20:42: I think we need to use terminology that works for a twenty first century in terms of also aggregating people more than segmenting Right.

02:20:51: The left is guilty because they're sectarian as fuck.

02:20:54: Like the Leftist sectarian the left has created elitists and sectarian.

02:21:00: if you are not the purest then what's the whole point of constantly fighting?

02:21:07: what we're seeing, now is the time to unite.

02:21:09: And I think that Palestine movement was very powerful exactly because it united and made people realize They can't speak freely anymore.

02:21:18: The pay high energy bills and their taxes go to.

02:21:21: the war machine is deeply connected to the fact that in Gaza children are dying And still we have like one out of four who's acutely malnourished, right?

02:21:30: So it's all connected.

02:21:32: so I'm of the idea that we need to use new terminology.

02:21:35: I'm definitely not as you can see shy about my ideas.

02:21:40: But what's interesting about Tulsa says that um...the local news cover What We Do because were talking of real people.

02:21:47: We're talking about food insecurity, incarceration debt as slavery and capitalism.

02:21:52: these are problems People feel And that's why even Fox News local Fox news covers our events actually like does previews Of our events.

02:22:02: Our events.

02:22:03: there was four hundred people at our event About participatory budgeting last time and it's people who don't consider themselves lefties At all you know Like the Left for them is some weird kind of elitist Space that they've never really interacted with.

02:22:17: so we have assembly members.

02:22:18: That are quite radical.

02:22:20: Some are also organizers of other organization like cooperation Tulsa.

02:22:23: there is in itself a very cool group.

02:22:26: We had organizers, but there's also lot people that it's the first time They participate in a political space and all their life.

02:22:32: And they do it because they really realize that knowledge as the first empowering First element to emancipate one's mind and ones actions, this can only happen collectively.

02:22:45: So I think the way to go potentially right now is to create these spaces that are local but really they're global.

02:22:54: because then if you start... proliferating assemblies and spaces.

02:22:59: And each assembly has their own, you know priorities like ours is like food sovereignty as a big one.

02:23:05: in Tulsa again One out of four children in Oklahoma is hungry.

02:23:08: This isn't the statistics Okay?

02:23:10: So we're not talking about what I got very concrete stuff when people don't want it.

02:23:13: for Twenty percent of residents in Tulsa live in a food desert.

02:23:18: And you can calculate food deserts, I don't know how many miles there's the definition but it is like a lot of miles from even reaching a freaking supermarket.

02:23:25: If we go to Oklahoma and drive out of Tulsa You do not find spaces that actually buy foods.

02:23:31: All you will find are some quick trips selling cheetos or beer.

02:23:35: So these were real problems.

02:23:37: There was no infrastructure for people.

02:23:38: if they did not have cars then you're fucked.

02:23:42: You're just like, there's so many people are stuck in their houses without a job because they can't move.

02:23:48: Literally the public transportation system is basically an existent right?

02:23:53: So these were real things.

02:23:55: The data centers opening.

02:23:56: we'll have an event on data center soon.

02:23:58: I was going to ask any data centers coming

02:24:00: up.

02:24:00: Yeah yeah yeah There's big mobilization.

02:24:03: now i'm on maternity leave In Italy for month.

02:24:06: Who building the data center?

02:24:09: That's thing immediately involved in the struggle, but the assembly is struggling.

02:24:14: I don't know who's building The Data Center.

02:24:16: it was in Sandsprings.

02:24:18: i think they're trying to block It.

02:24:20: there's a lot of mobilization right

02:24:22: now.

02:24:22: Open AI or Amazon?

02:24:23: Sandssprings and Tulsa.

02:24:26: yeah it's from Sandsspring Tulsa.

02:24:31: There's a big movement Right Now But we are going To have an event so I'll Have more information if when I

02:24:36: They Are actually pausing one.

02:24:37: Yeah because I Think Because they got A Lot Of Reaction And you know, it's an area that has... The main point is data centers are being opened up in areas already really water precarious and the second amount of Residents will feel it.

02:24:57: So these are battles that our very radical battles, and they can only be one by disputing the fundamentals of our economy And I think they can aggregate people That people that voted for Trump like trump is showing that voting for Trump Is clearly not the solution because he's been impoverishing his own electoral base.

02:25:16: You know now?

02:25:16: Now He's planning four hundred billion cut in cuts in medic Medicaid For The next ten Years.

02:25:24: Well, he's asking for over a trillion for Pentagon.

02:25:27: For the pentagon right?

02:25:29: So this is whole point.

02:25:30: I think that these type of battles are way to regenerate agency community.

02:25:37: it hard but its worth it.

02:25:39: i've learned so much being with people very different from me.

02:25:43: we share cause and really what makes us human.

02:25:46: at end

02:25:50: You mentioned this, seventy thousand dollars a year tuition for your students.

02:25:56: What kind of student do you have?

02:25:58: Who can afford going to your classes?

02:26:02: Um...you would be surprised how many people take on debt and are not rich kids.

02:26:11: Like it's pretty serious, like I would tell you that...I mean i don't know the statistics but something is easily findable Is many- I'd say majority of college kid in U.S..are NOT rich And they aren't then fucked by debt.

02:26:25: One student told me he had two hundred fifty thousand dollars in debt A master students at a new school.

02:26:33: I was shocked and he's like, yeah.

02:26:35: So now instead of doing a PhD have to go work for a bank And that is what he did.

02:26:43: He didn't like it but you know It was the way to start paying back the debt.

02:26:49: so thats how this happens.

02:26:52: What really scares me The reason why i think these private higher education in US Is not going to last very long is that now with AI, all these supposed jobs that these kids could get are going to be out of the picture.

02:27:13: So they keep... Oh I had a student.

02:27:17: he was great!

02:27:17: He did it whole research about how actually a lot of universities market in ways that are fraudulent.

02:27:23: They pretend like have all this ads for students and which they pretend A lot of students when they got out college.

02:27:33: And so the whole point is, yeah you can take on the debt but you'll like repay it back because we will get a good job once who gets our degree.

02:27:39: A lot of that data kind of really misleading and untrue.

02:27:45: So students...and this was my student.

02:27:47: he's like.

02:27:48: I want to do research on this and kids in class are already new.

02:27:51: It's depressing when they know your in it.

02:27:55: You might not even have those jobs anymore very quickly.

02:28:01: So that's really what I think is gonna, until universities can create the illusion of going to college as a way to make it an American society.

02:28:11: They'll survive.

02:28:12: but this illusion is just completely disproven by any fact.

02:28:16: there are people who actually get a college degree and they don't make much more than people without a college degrees.

02:28:27: so you know its marketing scheme which is bound to collapse.

02:28:31: Unfortunately, professors and private universities in the UK depend on this very sad faith of their own students.

02:28:43: So it's really a terrible situation because then we're complicit as well you know?

02:28:48: Finally quick answer... Should billionaires exist?

02:28:53: No.

02:28:54: Millionaires?

02:28:55: No!

02:28:56: No millionaires?

02:28:58: Why?

02:28:59: I don't know.

02:28:59: Why should we have millionaires when so many people can't even eat?

02:29:02: You tell me.

02:29:04: I think in an assembly, if... If people could share how much people made.

02:29:11: no one would accept to have a millionaire's in their group especially if others don't even have the home to sleep in.

02:29:17: Should money exist?

02:29:19: Potentially In different social system We couldn get rid of money i think.

02:29:24: But that is whole different conversation and what needs to be explored And i think you can really explore it.

02:29:28: only one tries alternatives out.

02:29:33: When should the left move away from text the rich?

02:29:37: to kill the rich, eat the rich?

02:29:43: As fast as possible!

02:29:45: No again I really think that Text The Rich is an important campaign because it can mobilize people.

02:29:52: But he

02:29:52: basically just said we need get rid of the rich.

02:29:56: I mean, but you're not getting rid of the person.

02:29:58: It doesn't mean that actually... Good!

02:30:03: You are just getting rid this social status which is not necessarily a person right?

02:30:10: The category in society could be your thought

02:30:12: They will try Social Death You killing my social status.

02:30:18: Well yes But if i were a millionaire that others have enough to survive.

02:30:31: And I could be not so rich, but still know that others around me are in at least dignified conditions something we're very far from.

02:30:42: poverty rates has been increasing under advanced capitalism.

02:30:47: We need to revert the ship completely and young generations understand this.

02:30:50: So i'm hopeful.

02:31:02: Hello.

02:31:03: First of all, I did some digging and found out the origin

02:31:08: of the word austerity

02:31:11: which

02:31:11: is

02:31:12: both Greek and Latin so

02:31:14: it exists as Austeritas

02:31:16: in Austerites also

02:31:17: Austerotis.

02:31:18: Okay very interesting In Greek.

02:31:21: So i guess that's

02:31:22: both correct.

02:31:24: present in all Romanic languages.

02:31:27: There was a question.

02:31:28: actually want to read verbatim because You're being personally addressed and somebody said dear Clara, I

02:31:36: deeply appreciate your work.

02:31:38: one question Why don't we fight

02:31:39: back?

02:31:40: why don't

02:31:40: the union strike.

02:31:42: Why aren't we in the streets?

02:31:46: That's The most important question of all And i think because people have been fundamentally made to think that they don't count.

02:31:58: um And this is something that's the worst pathology of our time.

02:32:05: I think, in my role as a scholar... ...I can help explain how strongly constructed are all these ideas that have disempowered us and how this construction of those ideas is completely untenable with respect to reality of capitalism because workers are powerful.

02:32:29: all of us, we are the ones as workers who create this value that is appropriated.

02:32:34: And you know even the big strike that happened in Italy.

02:32:39: when was it?

02:32:40: In I think it was September The general strike...the whole country stopped especially in the logistics sector.

02:32:47: It was huge!

02:32:48: It was enormous damage for profits and people united In solidarity with the freedom flotilla that was bringing literally like basic aid and being bombed for bringing very basic aid in this besieged Gaza.

02:33:05: So I think what we see here is, people still believe they're powerless but when do mobilize power is palpable.

02:33:14: And the whole point, I think is that this mobilization can't be lost.

02:33:18: Right?

02:33:19: Again in Italy there was a huge uprising.

02:33:21: people were on the street everybody wasn't.

02:33:23: It was...I

02:33:24: didn't really see

02:33:25: much solidarity in Germany.

02:33:26: i saw it some northern Italian cities

02:33:28: like so huge protest

02:33:30: Huge!

02:33:30: I mean Italy had Something crazy, like.

02:33:33: I think there were millions of people in the street.

02:33:36: Like something that had not been seen in ages and it wasn't the usual unions... It was actually grassroot unions and young people old people everyone together.

02:33:46: but The point is those moments or bursts of energy need to be channeled.

02:33:50: And i think this is an important part Is also very something depressing when you see like Black Lives Matter, right?

02:34:01: There was a huge energy that then kind of lost.

02:34:05: So we need to build those counter-institutions to be able to maintain the energy on the ground.

02:34:10: otherwise it's depressing to come and go.

02:34:13: but most all we have to rethink our power.

02:34:19: talking about rethinking if were in charge governments

02:34:24: which three

02:34:25: measures or policies

02:34:26: would

02:34:27: implement to induce change.

02:34:30: That's a good question.

02:34:33: Definitely, very high wealth tax.

02:34:37: that then of course will be reacted with capital flying out wherever you are.

02:34:44: so The needs we need, much more autonomously and in ways that are collective.

02:35:00: We can't depend on this capital flying in or out of the country.

02:35:03: You definitely need to regain our agency.

02:35:05: so That would mean I think giving a lot of space To these organizations that Are fighting for the commons And regeneration Of resources that do exist In all countries from landless workers in Brazil to a lot of stuff that are happening.

02:35:23: In fact, and the assemblies even in Rojava is now like again under attack.

02:35:28: there's A LOT OF STUFF OUT THERE THAT WE CAN LEARN FROM!

02:35:30: So that would say I would start initiating.

02:35:33: a crisis then can really only be solved by people taking action directly.

02:35:38: Do you see big urgency

02:35:39: for

02:35:40: change into that direction?

02:35:42: Because i mean People were also asking about indicators similar about inflation prognosis and increase in

02:35:52: credit defaults.

02:35:53: And things like that, do you think we're

02:35:56: rather close

02:35:58: to another

02:36:00: crisis

02:36:01: along the lines of

02:36:02: what happened in two thousand eight?

02:36:06: We need to see what happens now.

02:36:07: I think this energy crisis is a huge deal though even more than politically induced crisis.

02:36:18: that again will be suffered by common citizens who have no money to pay the skyrocketing electricity bills, whose debt of America is increasing its debt.

02:36:32: To support the genocide and these insanity.

02:36:36: so citizens will feel this a crisis if especially it continues now we don't know what's going so-called peace talks between Iran and the United States.

02:36:48: So I think it is more than you know, the US represents as an embodiment of hegemon in this capitalist economy.

02:37:04: So I had a really good conversation with Kostas Lapavitzas on our YouTube channel exactly about this that maybe one can watch.

02:37:11: but um... That's all i could say.

02:37:13: it is really we need to observe what will happen next week.

02:37:19: It actually connects very nice something somebody was wondering about

02:37:25: states

02:37:26: And whether or not you see states

02:37:28: as

02:37:28: a problem, whether nor democracy might be nice sounding but essentially empty term.

02:37:35: As there's very little democracy regarding

02:37:38: capital?

02:37:39: Absolutely so.

02:37:41: I just wrote this more general audience book that will be translated in German uh...but i think in the fall um..I had last chapters called Democracy against capitalism, actually democracy is anti-capitalism.

02:37:55: I don't think one can speak about democracy under capitalism in any way and i try to explain why?

02:38:04: of course it's obvious that political democracy cannot be based on anti-democracy in terms of economic relations.

02:38:13: So until we have delegated decisions about why we produce and how, to such few people that organizations presuppose the exploitation of the many, we cannot have a democratic system.

02:38:28: So liberal democracy is in a way a farce that we need to really realize can only take on substantive content if we populate it with I think really with collective space spaces or collective actions such as assemblies and see how these assemblies.

02:38:54: Right.

02:38:56: Regarding austerity, more

02:38:58: specifically

02:39:00: someone was wondering... Austerity as a weapon

02:39:04: of the powerful

02:39:06: seems logical but are there limits to this?

02:39:09: Is there case where austerity is

02:39:12: actually beneficial or necessary?

02:39:15: and

02:39:16: I added

02:39:17: something that came across when reading on austerity where it comes across Michael Spence

02:39:24: who

02:39:25: argues that there is a misunderstanding at the basis of the austerity term, that they're the Keynesian notion of reduction in deficit.

02:39:34: That it's so fast

02:39:37: like the savings are overcompensated by the costs of severe recession versus especially German economic terms of austerity as the restoration and flexibility

02:39:51: productivity

02:39:51: competitiveness via wage restraints and structural reforms.

02:39:57: So

02:39:58: about

02:39:59: that question, maybe this might be important to differentiate because somebody

02:40:08: asks is there a case where austerity

02:40:11: is beneficial

02:40:12: or necessary with these two different definitions?

02:40:15: Right, so I hope understood correctly.

02:40:18: but i think you're right in saying that it was going back a little bit to the point where making kind of mainstream debate about austerity is exactly between those that tell you that austerity is necessary and it's beneficial.

02:40:33: And at the end of day, it does have expansionary effects like someone like Alberto Lezina had this idea of expansionary austerity.

02:40:42: Those who tell you actually that austerities are self-defeating because they do not know what to do or increase savings Depresses the economy so the deficit actually becomes bigger, right?

02:41:00: So that's kind of the conversation there.

02:41:03: I would say within this conversation we see they are playing the same field of just pretending capitalism is eternal and not really disputing underlying mechanisms.

02:41:15: what matter if you do then realize under Capitalism, austerity is always necessary but in the deeper sense of maintaining the capital order.

02:41:26: In the deeper sense of maintain that political subordination.

02:41:30: Austerity can never be good for people and it's definitely something capitalism needs.

02:41:42: And I also think that in this sense its only... Austerite policies understood as, again like paying for the rich and extracting from the poor is something that it's never necessary in this sense of necessity for society but... And for the logic of need.

02:42:02: But its always necessary if we want to preserve this economic system

02:42:06: Right.

02:42:07: I should preface by saying i don't personally believe In

02:42:11: these two

02:42:13: rival

02:42:15: notions

02:42:16: Of austerity.

02:42:19: German

02:42:21: ideal of austerity

02:42:26: would probably

02:42:28: say that it is not bad for the people because

02:42:31: in the end, a

02:42:35: restoration of prosperity

02:42:37: in the end.

02:42:37: But that's like actually wrong historically.

02:42:41: and again, look at the global south I think we also need to decentralize our conversation from specific countries in the Global North are situated differently on the planet.

02:42:57: countries in the global south have been structurally doing austerity, imposed by of course the big economists running IMF and World Bank.

02:43:07: But this austerity has only increased their market dependence on the Global North right?

02:43:11: And so actual austerity hasn't opened up there economy to more private investors that are actually extracting literally all resources.

02:43:20: I had the numbers here.

02:43:22: Did I write it down somewhere?

02:43:30: Yeah, that the rich in the global north extracts thirty million per hour from the Global South.

02:43:38: This is according to Oxfam numbers so recent numbers.

02:43:44: Thirty million dollars per hour extracted from the global south.

02:43:47: and this happens through the austerity policies that have been pressured on these countries and These countries just become more market dependent More subservient to private capital workers are more impoverished And so on and so forth.

02:44:03: So I would tell you that this is actually what austerity does.

02:44:06: also in the global north You maybe see it less but, you know In Italy That's exactly the point.

02:44:10: Is that austerity?

02:44:11: Sure Maybe the spread numbers will go down But at some moment momentary illusion because you're actually satisfying market expectations, but market expectations are satisfied if your disintegrating the social infrastructure by dismantling it.

02:44:30: Disintegrate any like autonomous source of value and this is exactly what austerity policies do?

02:44:36: Yeah there was something I was personally wondering about

02:44:42: the

02:44:43: adults in term that Vofach is used

02:44:47: to talk about, like the bureaucrats

02:44:51: in control of these

02:44:52: policies.

02:44:53: That he

02:44:53: kind of described this sort of imposter syndrome or an outsider doom not being on a joke certain suspicion there might be something you just didn't know before taking up negotiations with the Troika, and then ended up being shocked at

02:45:09: how little

02:45:09: knowledge and competence there actually was in these key positions.

02:45:14: And that it seemed like... There might be no one behind this steering wheel!

02:45:20: So I was wondering

02:45:21: if you could

02:45:23: give your opinion on how much

02:45:25: regarding those policies might actually be guided by a sort of ignorance rather than just

02:45:31: bad intent?

02:45:34: I think there's a multiplicity of this.

02:45:36: Again, i really don't think bad intent is the key to understanding historical and social processes right?

02:45:42: And that's exactly the escaping...the methodological individualism That is so detrimental to all social sciences Right!

02:45:50: The idea that actually it's the individual choice It's an individual actor that is causing the problem here in my work forces, the systemic pressures and also the impersonal pressures.

02:46:04: The impersonal forces that the Marxian tradition discusses... And again this impersonal force has nothing deterministic about them.

02:46:11: they are socially constructed right?

02:46:13: That's a whole point.

02:46:14: we're the architects of this economy that traps us.

02:46:17: so it is true that its trapping but its also true agents in these roles are explicating the logic of this system, and they're doing it out of actually probably good intentions because they deeply believe that economic models distract us from what really matters.

02:46:51: So I would say absolutely like its a mix mainstream economics huge amount of harms, there's a big research about how students that study economics end up being much more egoistic and much more like individually driven than student studying other researchers in others fields.

02:47:11: And again this is because the way what we studied does impact who are.

02:47:15: but I also think that point it not necessarily to do at demographic study or whose in charge by understand those in charge expressing much deeper forces, that those are the ones I think good political economists need to analyze.

02:47:34: So you would say that a common

02:47:36: bureaucrat

02:47:36: is

02:47:39: conscious

02:47:40: of their role

02:47:41: in this system.

02:47:44: a peg or

02:47:45: wheel in the machine

02:47:47: can be attributed?

02:47:48: Oh yes, absolutely.

02:47:49: And again I think that point is there's the role of the capitalist state to preserve capitalism.

02:47:54: how do you preserve capitalism?

02:47:55: through austerity?

02:47:56: so... That's their role.

02:47:58: like we cant expect reform and change from those at top thats why need take it into our own hands.

02:48:06: if u want see what can also done here in Germany a meeting with potential global organizers, with the Free Free Forum online to see if we can open different chapters.

02:48:19: And so I think this is the whole point like... The only way these people will do something different is they are threatened by their actual base who mobilizes.

02:48:30: Let's maybe end on an economic academic question.

02:48:39: You talked about this little bit

02:48:41: but

02:48:42: Why did you choose

02:48:44: to work for a university

02:48:46: that charges such high tuition?

02:48:49: And how do you feel about kind of working relationship, conflicted

02:48:55: about

02:48:55: working there in any way.

02:48:57: Yeah so thats why I'm happy to be joining the department at John Jay College.

02:49:04: That is public system.

02:49:06: It's city college New York not making their students pay the debt to study.

02:49:19: So I am transitioning in a bit, an institution that i feel more morally at peace with myself working for but also want to stress that, you know as any employee like we don't really usually get to choose where we work and this is the whole point of being part of their working classes.

02:49:43: That kind of view... You take the job that you find And I think this is a whole point Is that we need to abolish The fact that for example the universities in the United States and elsewhere participate, university education should not be a commodity.

02:50:01: So this is just my individual choice of where I work but they're institutional context.

02:50:07: I was made to even make this decision.

02:50:11: Like that's the real problem, right?

02:50:12: And that's why we should really fight for the decommodification of education and That's why apart from where whom my employer will be it's also about creating these alternative spaces and that's what The Free does!

02:50:23: The free is a space for critical and collective knowledge... ...and i hope you can follow our YouTube channel.

02:50:28: It's www.FreeFreeForm.org as our website.. ..And This Is I think A First Space To Make Education plural, accessible and especially in charge and participant to real transformation and emancipation.

02:50:48: Clara thank you so much for coming on the show.

02:50:51: it's been a pleasure.

02:50:52: I hope you'll be

02:50:53: back for your next awards ceremony in Berlin that i'm sure

02:50:57: will

02:50:58: come.

02:51:03: Thanks to our supporters

02:51:05: without whose

02:51:05: financial backing we simply would not be around and Some of who's names will appear in the show credits.

02:51:14: Make sure to tune-in next time.

02:51:17: Thank you,